00:00:00: Today's conversation is a very special one for me, both professionally and personally.

00:00:06: My guest is someone who has shaped the field of negotiation in one of the most intense environments imaginable!

00:00:14: He´s the former chief of the FBI´s Crisis Negotiation Unit – A man who spent decades negotiating when lives were literally on line.

00:00:23: Gary Nessner is widely regarded as one of the world's leading experts in hostage and crisis negotiation.

00:00:31: He has been involved with some of the most challenging and high-stakes situations in modern history, helped define what effective negotiations truly mean.

00:00:41: under extreme pressure and his best seller stalling for time.

00:00:45: he shares his hard won insights with us But beyond all titles & achievements What stands out most is his deep understanding of human behavior, emotion and connection.

00:00:58: I had the privilege Of learning from Gary personally during an intensive training over two remarkable days An experience that profoundly shaped The way i think about negotiation communication And trust.

00:01:11: in today's episode we will explore what it really takes to negotiate when everything Is at stake how the FBI approach differs from more traditional models like Harvard, and what all of us leaders negotiators and human beings can learn.

00:01:27: From these powerful principles.

00:01:29: Gary it's truly an honor to have you here.

00:01:32: welcome to this show.

00:01:34: that's pleasure.

00:01:34: be with you today Christian.

00:01:36: thank you.

00:01:36: so let say something uh... two year person gary What originally drew you into the world of hostage negotiation?

00:01:44: Yeah,

00:01:45: I wanted to be an FBI agent since i was a young kid and then when I got my initial training.

00:01:51: The specialty of negotiations was just emerging And I was attending a lecture in which they were discussing new innovative training programs the FBI was engaged And one of those was Haas's negotiation, which the FBI had just copied in its original basic form from The New York City Police Department.

00:02:15: And hearing about the process of diffusing tense situations with communication skills was very appealing to me and something that I thought would fit my personality.

00:02:36: After a few years, I was able to secure training in the program and then later my career became not just a part-time function but full time Function.

00:02:45: And then I spent the last ten years of my career as chief negotiator for the FBI.

00:02:50: Was there specific moment that fundamentally changed you?

00:02:56: Well That's hard say it is more evolutionary process.

00:03:01: every incident work learn from others.

00:03:06: A colleague of mine always used to say that if you want to be a good negotiator, you have to become a student of the game.

00:03:13: You don't attend one course or read one book and say okay now I know everything.

00:03:18: You have to constantly seek knowledge and experience... And i've always said you should learn from everyone you can every time you can!

00:03:29: Now there's different emphasis placed on aspects of negotiations by different instructors.

00:03:35: My view is take it in, listen to it.

00:03:38: does this feel comfortable for you?

00:03:40: Does it fit you?

00:03:41: do you think uh...does it resonate with you?

00:03:43: and then from that you form your sort-of approach to negotiations?

00:03:49: I think one of the big impacts maybe the biggest impact me after i've been negotiating over ten years.

00:03:57: I met Dr.

00:03:58: Mike Webster from Canada, a psychologist and we had active listening skills as the small part of our FBI curriculum at that time.

00:04:07: but he explained them and talked to him on level i'd never seen before And that approach did have profound effect on me and helped reach decision some years later.

00:04:19: focus the entire FBI program on those crisis intervention relationship building tools.

00:04:26: And funny is he's a very, very big strong man and he talks about active listening.

00:04:33: Yeah it was a former football player college football player professional football player and a professional wrestler but He has a very unique way of communicating with people any...he's instantly your best friend.

00:04:50: I've never seen anyone quite so adept at it an effective.

00:04:56: While I had some of those attributes, being around him and bringing to every course we taught at the FBI Academy.

00:05:05: To help us deliver this material.

00:05:08: it certainly has an effect on me in fine tuning my sense that people want to work with what they respect them like.

00:05:20: so all business negotiation courses Talk a great deal about structure and procedure in process.

00:05:28: And things you say.

00:05:28: how, You say it when?

00:05:30: It's all that is good and helpful information I don't criticize any of.

00:05:35: but at the end of day really relationship with person whether business context or crisis situation dealing your spouse children friend having difficult time i think if we are empathic and genuine, sincere.

00:05:58: And engaging... I think that's the secret formula for success in

00:06:04: negotiations.".

00:06:10: in other persons, what they feel.

00:06:25: And that's very great to know you can learn empathy.

00:06:29: Yeah I think a lot of business negotiations are focused on.

00:06:33: this is how i'm going to present my argument and proposal.

00:06:40: if do it the right way then more likely get success.

00:06:48: denigrate any of that, I think it's all useful and valuable information.

00:06:54: But for me... It is how you come across in the relationship we build-I think everything about life is related to relationships.

00:07:02: You know..you heard this in class where you attended.

00:07:08: but with all situations i worked through years We would always ask a person who surrendered in very tense violent situation where life was on the line, would ask them what did I say that made you come out peacefully?

00:07:25: Because we wanna know obviously as people to do this for a living.

00:07:30: We want to replicate what we do well and if there's mistakes that have been identified then we wanna avoid those in the future.

00:07:37: but the response we consistently got almost every time is a surprising one but extremely insightful.

00:07:45: I don't remember what you said, but I like the way you said it.

00:07:51: And if think about that?

00:07:54: That's really powerful!

00:07:57: Because my one criticism of business negotiations... ...I think there is more emphasis on how you say it.

00:08:08: There are more emphasis in what you say and my emphasis has always been how you say it, how you come across?

00:08:14: How are perceived.

00:08:16: Does the other person look to me as being cooperative flexible a nice person likeable someone they want to work with?

00:08:26: if you ask me that's essentially keys of success I had through my career and particularly so in context law enforcement because we're truly in crisis business both going into discussion both hoping to come through an agreement.

00:08:45: In law enforcement, the other party is resisting and they don't want a comply.

00:08:49: They don't wanna surrender or give up.

00:08:52: let the hostage go whatever it might be.

00:08:54: So if we speak to them in a genuine respectful way... ...they don't expect that from police.

00:09:01: It sort of disarms them a little bit And they ultimately reach their decision to cooperate.

00:09:07: because I said you know?

00:09:08: I like the way Gary talked me.

00:09:10: he seemed He was honest, he wasn't lying to me.

00:09:13: You know I think when i asked him for advice... ...he gave me good advice about what I should do?

00:09:20: It's a really simple thing in many ways Christian but it is hard.. ..for people to understand and embrace it.

00:09:26: Yes true!

00:09:28: In Germany we say the sound makes music.

00:09:31: Sound makes the music.

00:09:33: Yeah yeah that

00:09:36: something like that.

00:09:37: And if you are calm with someone He gets more in resonance with you.

00:09:43: Yeah, and I also think...I don't mean this as a negative but i'm an Austrian-German heritage.

00:09:52: That heritage is very organized.

00:09:56: It can be very official Can be focused on the next step The next point And that's what makes German people, very industrious and productive.

00:10:10: And successful.

00:10:11: but in negotiations I think it's helpful particularly the Germans speaking world to try To move into a little bit of a softer approach.

00:10:19: A little minute you know which take your time.

00:10:23: We always say have always said for forty years In the FBI we Have to earn The right to be of influence.

00:10:30: People don't Say oh Gary Nester with the FBI Is here i'm gonna Surrender now It doesn't.

00:10:36: It doesn't usually work that way.

00:10:38: I have to through my communication efforts, do the exchanges... My inquiries about how they're doing what the problem is showing that i understand it.

00:10:48: you know this empowers me to be of influence later on.

00:10:53: and so You get there?

00:10:55: You just-you had to take your time!

00:10:57: The business guru Stephen Covey from United States he described us in a nice way.

00:11:02: He said first seek to understand and then seek to be understood.

00:11:09: So before we lay out our objectives, in our proposals if were able to patient and thoughtful listen what the other party is saying they're trying to achieve demonstrating that understand it by repeating back paraphrasing asking open-ended questions can you tell me more about?

00:11:31: I want that.

00:11:34: you are faced in your procurement department because I think we can help, but i want to be sure I fully understand what the issue is before I can offer a solution and we may be able to provide.

00:11:45: That's fine!

00:11:46: And I think people respect that... You wanna hear what I have to say?

00:11:51: You're not here just to tell me what you think.

00:11:55: I need-you're here to listen.

00:11:59: Yes, it's one of the strongest from the seven principles of Stephen Kowie.

00:12:04: The world best seller he wrote.

00:12:07: and It was that situation with this man and two children in the U-Bahn.

00:12:14: And the kids made fun and were allowed.

00:12:22: And he told the father, what's up with your kids?

00:12:25: The father wakes up and said oh true we were in a hospital.

00:12:29: The mother of children died.

00:12:32: I don't know what to do but you are right Steven doesn't feel so good at this moment.

00:12:42: We really have to make an effort.

00:12:44: We may never fully be able understand other people or thinking about what is motivating them.

00:12:50: Problems or concerns are issues they have but we need to make an effort and You get a lot of credit for making that effort even if I get it wrong.

00:12:59: I might say Christian you sound very disappointed in In not making that Business deal that you were working on And you might say, I'm not disappointed.

00:13:14: i'm really surprised more than anything else.

00:13:17: Okay so I got it wrong.

00:13:20: I said disappointment, you said surprise.

00:13:23: What have i done?

00:13:24: Now I've learned what it is that you are feeling about what happened.

00:13:31: so now when I respond next thing says well can You tell me why?

00:13:35: it surprised you?

00:13:36: was this something you didn't expect?

00:13:38: all of these things When you do them almost unconsciously if you been negotiating a long time convey to the other person I'm interested I want to get it right and you're patient, thoughtful.

00:13:52: Instead of just telling people what they need... You go in to buy a new car and the salesman may say oh Christian i know exactly what you need!

00:14:01: I got this brand-new car boom boom.

00:14:03: well he doesn't know you and he doesn' t tell me.

00:14:05: what do you need?

00:14:05: The smarter salesmen is going to say hey how can i help you

00:14:08: today?!

00:14:09: What sort of transportation are you looking

00:14:11: for??

00:14:11: And why don't you take your time look around..I'm gonna be sitting over there be over your shoulder and bothering you, putting pressure on.

00:14:21: That's a salesperson that I'm probably going to give my business too rather than the guy who is following around in his showroom asking him million questions pretending like he knows about what we need...I think some salesman thinks this way but it isn't my preference.

00:14:38: It's often too much?

00:14:46: Yes!

00:14:47: the art of being a really good waiter at a really nice restaurant.

00:14:51: You want them to be there when you need them, but you don't want them that disturb you and I think they're really good.

00:14:59: waiters without even being conscious about it can do a good job with gauging mood conversation behavior when's right time say would like order some dessert now or when needed drink versus just constantly interrupting bothering.

00:15:17: It can be, as you say too much.

00:15:19: Yeah

00:15:20: and in this fast world it's very difficult for many people being a good waiter.

00:15:26: But

00:15:26: there is the opposite mistake of not being attentive enough Not looking over at the table The guy says hey I want my drink refilled or whatever.

00:15:37: that is i think its challenging balance And i doubt anybody gets it right all time.

00:15:44: but i think successful Individuals develop skills that allow them to have a better sense of the level of engagement That's required and

00:15:54: I learned from you.

00:15:54: It's it's a thing between balance and flexibility.

00:15:57: Yes, absolutely Absolutely.

00:16:00: And-and ii have A question because um Of your flexibility so how do You deal?

00:16:06: Um with someone who appears completely irrational?

00:16:10: It's very tough.

00:16:11: i mean in my former life that was not at all an unusual occurrence quite frequently actually.

00:16:17: It requires a great deal of patience, most importantly it requires self-control.

00:16:22: you have to control your own emotions and be sure that you do not overreact or attack them because their behavior is inappropriate.

00:16:31: the things they say.

00:16:43: If you can't control your own emotions and their negotiations, how can you begin to influence someone else?

00:16:50: You can.

00:16:51: So that's actually the very first thing I say in negotiators.

00:16:55: when I train law enforcement negotiator self-control is two words out of my mouth.

00:17:00: if you can do that... ...you're gonna have a hard time being successful negotiator.. ..if you allow every bump on the road, every obstacle ,every inappropriate response to cause you to anger or say something regretful, it's really gonna be an impediment for your success.

00:17:18: You know what?

00:17:19: It doesn't mean that you have to be insulted.

00:17:20: if we were negotiating and kept saying bad things about me I might say Christian.

00:17:25: um...you asked this meeting and i'm here spending time with today appreciate the fact there is a problem..I can hear very upset of our inability provide product And meet your expectations, but you know if you're yelling at me.

00:17:41: It's really not helping us solve the problem.

00:17:44: So can't we try to work together see if there is some solution now?

00:17:47: That doesn't guarantee that The other person will calm down.

00:17:51: But if you continue in that vein and don't overreact There's an old saying it takes two to tango.

00:17:57: It takes two people to do the dance.

00:18:00: You know If someone's angry and mad at you and you don't respond in kind allow things to settle down rather than throwing fuel on the fire and making it worse.

00:18:14: You have an effect of demonstrating the appropriate behavior for the other person to copy, you know?

00:18:21: And there are some cases.

00:18:23: I want to be completely candid with your listeners.

00:18:27: There are negotiators in this world that say they guarantee results.

00:18:34: I don't know, forty-five years or something.

00:18:38: I can't guarantee those results.

00:18:40: There are things going on in people's lives that you're unaware of.

00:18:44: there may be decision makers at a different level who have already made up their mind.

00:18:49: They just they're just talking with you because they have to get bids from three contractors.

00:18:53: i mean You don't Know what's Going On.

00:18:55: this person is having A bad day as the story you reflected, that children's mother just died.

00:18:59: There are things we can't possibly know so they only thing to control is yourself.

00:19:04: but with those people who are consistently negative and angry it's okay to walk away.

00:19:12: It's OK to walk way.

00:19:13: So I could tell something i've said or this situation has got very angry.

00:19:18: Maybe we should set up another call when, when we've had a time to think about this.

00:19:24: Because as long as were in that state of anxiety We're really not going accomplish much.

00:19:29: and you seen from the slides on class I know your listeners can't see it but if imagine teeter totter i don't.

00:19:37: what would be called in Germany?

00:19:38: What's name for that?

00:19:40: Childs play equipment one goes up and one goes...

00:19:43: And a VIPPA!

00:19:44: It is called a Vippa.

00:19:46: Okay well When one end is high, that's emotions.

00:19:50: Yeah

00:19:51: the low-end is rational thinking and behavior And I would submit That you cannot accomplish anything in a state of high emotion and low Rationality.

00:20:01: so The negotiator job is not so much to offer A better deal a clear set Of particulars but rather To concentrate on lowering the emotion.

00:20:12: And when we lower the emotional level of exchange, what comes up as the Vipers' emotion comes down.

00:20:19: The other party's ability to think and behave more rationally increases.

00:20:23: it is a very simple principle but its key in everything not just business negotiations but life.

00:20:29: my opinion if you are mad at your spouse sometimes before say something that will regret maybe step away little bit cool off.

00:20:41: Think more carefully before you make a bad situation worse.

00:20:45: And it's amazing, I don't know... You can think of many instances in my life where something has happened and my initial reaction is oh my god this is terrible!

00:20:54: The next day?

00:20:55: Yeah not so bad we'll figure out.

00:20:58: when my son was young he wrecked the car ...and then you see the car go Oh My God!

00:21:03: Then say wait a minute He's safe nobody was hurt It's just a car no big deal.

00:21:09: But your initial reaction is in that high emotional state, right?

00:21:14: So then when that has had time to subside now you think about it more rationally.

00:21:19: You say like well It's not that bad I've got insurance He's not hurt.

00:21:24: That's the important thing.

00:21:25: nobody else was hurt.

00:21:27: yeah life goes on.

00:21:28: so okay

00:21:29: Yeah and let me paraphrase it.

00:21:31: And again its all about balance flexibility and to be a good waiter.

00:21:37: Ya ya i think.

00:21:39: so.

00:21:40: no I think that's right.

00:21:42: You know, a lot...I have a whole presentation as you may recall on how you say it and i think there's a fair amount of research that shows that very high percentage Of what we say is more focused on the manner We Say It versus What We Say?

00:22:02: Don't ever underestimate The power of your tone And Your demeanor.

00:22:09: This goes to in business your facial expressions and you're body language.

00:22:13: So I look through the camera now as we are recording this, And i see a face We've met before but were friends But i see you smiling and engaged.

00:22:22: That's positive.

00:22:24: It helps fuel good discussion.

00:22:28: Were comfortable there is no aggression.

00:22:30: There was no caution on our parts.

00:22:33: What he trying do?

00:22:34: why ask me that?

00:22:36: what his angle?

00:22:37: you know, argue with me.

00:22:39: You know if we can get away from all that and just say I like this person.

00:22:46: the number one attribute of successful negotiations in all the work i've done is likability.

00:22:53: now?

00:22:53: That might be defined differently by different folks.

00:22:57: what isn't well...I think it's a lot of unknowns and it's slightly different for one person to another but You'll be successful in life, no matter what you do.

00:23:10: No matter your business because people want to work with the people they like and appreciate and

00:23:16: respect.".

00:23:18: Many of my listeners are familiar with a Harvard approach to negotiation – structured interest-based and rational.

00:23:26: How would you describe the DNA?

00:23:34: You made a comment in your opening remarks.

00:23:37: I don't know that you meant it that way, but the FBI never copied Harvard's program.

00:23:41: they evolved separately and after us.

00:23:46: But um yeah i'm not an expert on The Harvard approach because its so oriented towards business.

00:23:51: In my opinion of what little?

00:23:53: I know about it, but I think our DNA started out as we learned from NYPD in nineteen.

00:23:59: seventy three New York City Started negotiations and we the FBI started in seventy-four.

00:24:06: It was about bargaining.

00:24:09: it was about Isolating a perpetrator bad guy In this spot where the crime is being committed.

00:24:16: so they could not Spread that crime further or endanger my life more lives, so we isolate it And We instead of charging in with guns are demanding They surrender?

00:24:30: The teeter totter that you know.

00:24:33: through the discussion with the police officers They come to realize they don't have as much power and control Hostage.

00:24:40: takers say I've got a hostage.

00:24:42: if you don't do what.

00:24:42: I want i'll kill him, I Control everything.

00:24:46: well, they don' t really wanna kill the hostage because?

00:24:49: They came to get money.

00:24:50: they came to Get jewelry.

00:24:51: they came too.

00:24:52: whatever their demands are They're not there to kill that person And they're threatening that person.

00:24:59: and when they do It tells me they want to live.

00:25:03: For example, if I'm a hostage taker and say Christian If you police come in here?

00:25:08: I will kill this hostage.

00:25:10: Now many police officers hear that they go.

00:25:12: oh my god He's going to kill the hostage.

00:25:14: i hear That and i say he's scared To die.

00:25:17: he doesn't want to die.

00:25:18: he is threatening This person to keep Me away.

00:25:21: he Is scared of me.

00:25:23: i control him.

00:25:25: I'm the only one that can keep him safe and alive.

00:25:28: Now, he doesn't realize it right now but after we talk for a while And he sees that i don't just do anything He says when he snaps his fingers?

00:25:44: in a very high percentage, they want to live.

00:25:57: And we have to help them find a way to reach that conclusion.

00:26:00: but we success.

00:26:01: now business is so.

00:26:03: That was the model We started at and then as I mentioned earlier In nineteen ninety we shifted To a crisis intervention Model because we found that in The United States and i will tell you if the world over Germany all of Europe Canada Australia What police are really responding?

00:26:19: To or not hostage situations there crisis intervention, drug alcohol dependency domestic man and wife angry somebody's mad at his boss because he got fired from a job.

00:26:29: All of these things where the person is acting irrationally is acting on emotion.

00:26:34: you know if you kill your boss you're not going to get your job back.

00:26:38: I mean that makes sense but then person is not in that clear thinking mode so that our DNA is diffuse.

00:26:48: lower emotions stall for time because time allows us to make better decisions, allows for more clear thinking lowers tension.

00:26:58: Allows us to bring in more resources.

00:27:00: it does a lot of things force.

00:27:02: Time alone is a great thing to have.

00:27:05: so when some police commanders say this is taking so long you're saying well that's good nobody getting hurt!

00:27:10: You know?

00:27:10: Time has little bit money but its life lives at line... So thats I think the major difference between business negotiations.

00:27:19: we do have team structure and work as I think.

00:27:22: the Harvard approach, it's preparation.

00:27:25: It's developing a plan that's having an alternative and knowing when to walk away and all that kind of stuff in.

00:27:30: you know In my world i couldn't walk away.

00:27:33: I didn't have that option.

00:27:35: And although I believe in a win-win You could say that at law enforcement we win The bad guy loses but?

00:27:43: I've always felt that when a bad guys surrenders instead of being killed then he wins too.

00:27:48: So I still call it a win win.

00:27:49: so I'm not sure if that addressed your question, but yeah

00:27:53: I think the The question is you know one of your pupils where Chris Foss and he fires against the Harvard concept.

00:28:01: And in my opinion There are two schools the FBI school that's let's name it like this at the Harvard School and the Harvard school Needs these great things from your behavioral change stairway model to make better decisions And to get better goals.

00:28:23: On the other hand, in a hostage situation yes you can't argument with business speech from Harvard but on the other side it's possible and its helpful To take these tools that were teaching.

00:28:39: Yeah I think this will sound self-serving But i think The Business community Can use more of our Tools than the Other way around.

00:28:47: It is not to suggest there's not some value in the approaches to business that are very helpful, but by and large we're really dealing with a different set of circumstances.

00:28:59: I mean when General Motors is negotiating with Mercedes they don't kill Mercedes if the deal goes bad you know.

00:29:09: yeah i mean it both parties are incentivized.

00:29:18: quite evident that in law enforcement, it's a different dynamic.

00:29:23: We're not looking for long-term relationship or to increase business and we are trying keep people alive without anyone getting hurt.

00:29:32: so again I would never suggest the law enforcement negotiations couldn't benefit from some things but primarily around right now.

00:29:45: many years ago back into the eighties One of the professors from Harvard called me up at the FBI Academy and he said, you know.

00:29:51: You guys everything you do you learn from us.

00:29:53: And I said i've never heard of you?

00:29:55: I don't even know what you're talking about sir.

00:29:57: Yeah But you know because it worked in the business community.

00:30:00: He assumed Wrongly that we were applying those same skill sets In law enforcement.

00:30:06: then frankly We just weren't.

00:30:09: It's a different kettle fish.

00:30:10: now.

00:30:10: if I was trying to negotiate a big contract, I would go with an experience.

00:30:17: If someone is holding your son or daughter hostage when they are on the trip overseas then you might want to be in contact

00:30:41: Share a situation where every everything was truly on the edge.

00:30:46: and what?

00:30:47: Was the most critical moment, and what exactly did you say or do?

00:30:51: well there's so many.

00:30:53: I mean The first chapter of my book talks about one that Ended up not in the way we would like but a man.

00:30:59: Was holding A woman-and-child In a remote uh i guess You could Say cabin in the rural area And he had kidnapped her.

00:31:10: He'd formally lived with her, they had a child but their relationship was long over.

00:31:14: But he kidnapped him and They were found in this house And I had to go out negotiate with them for ten hours and Initially it wasn't too bad, but um i began To ask him you know how we're going to resolve It?

00:31:30: I tried the minimize what had happened.

00:31:32: You know This is an argument between you and your former living wife.

00:31:37: No reason for anyone to get hurt kind of the standard thing we do.

00:31:41: And show him that he's not in that big a trouble, but he went psychologically volcanic and he just went crazy yelling and screaming.

00:31:51: then he was gonna kill her right there while I'm talking to him quite tense.

00:31:55: um you know i won't go through all the details But if somebody wants to hear about it they can read into book but never excuse me.

00:32:02: ultimately uh...I only convinced them letting him think he was going to be able to get into a helicopter outside and fly away.

00:32:11: We don't let people do that, you know we don't want somebody getting the helicopter.

00:32:15: take their hostage in go off to never-never land.

00:32:18: I knew that but i had to convince them...we could not get where he was quickly enough to save the woman and child.

00:32:27: so the only way he would be vulnerable is if we brought him outside to go to the helicopters.

00:32:33: So my negotiation for several hours focused on convincing him that he was going to ride on a helicopter and his scheme is gonna work.

00:32:42: That's extraordinarily challenging, you know?

00:32:46: Ultimately... He did bring them out of the house And an FBI marksman was able take his life to save the woman child.

00:32:56: Now someone might say why didn't they put it in a book about negotiations?

00:32:59: Well..he would have never come from outside had I not created relationship with trust.

00:33:04: Now, despite that relationship of trust he kept reminding me that if this didn't happen.

00:33:08: He was going to kill her and I believed him.

00:33:11: but it's a tough situation And the problem is in law enforcement.

00:33:16: If we make a mistake It's a fatal mistake You know?

00:33:18: Its not like We lost business too bad.

00:33:22: Get another client.

00:33:23: No!

00:33:23: It doesn't work That way.

00:33:25: In my former life you Know its Life & Death.

00:33:27: Somebody dies they die And that weighs heavily on your performance Your decision making and actions.

00:33:34: But so that's a pretty dramatic case.

00:33:37: And, you know... So in my mind I say he made the decision about the outcome .I didn't make the decision.

00:33:45: He decided this is going to happen or his gonna kill them and i facilitated it In way that made him feel like he could do that.

00:33:54: That makes me bad person but there are women and child alive today because of that.

00:34:02: It's funny.

00:34:03: I'm still in contact with her too after many, many years and she is doing well but that's an example of the kinds things we do you know?

00:34:14: And i don't like manipulation although we kind did on this one generally avoid it.

00:34:21: ,i dont like lying to perpetrators.

00:34:24: .I have found success creating a relationship an openness and when they ask you something that's really crazy.

00:34:32: You say, I can't do that.

00:34:34: there are a lot of things i could for ya but i cant do it.

00:34:37: the other thing we have may be business relationship is always project negotiators limited authority.

00:34:44: this important.

00:34:45: so if your negotiating one two three okay hear what you're saying.

00:34:50: let me understand.

00:34:51: number one or two lets present to my boss decision maker.

00:34:59: I'll see what response he or she has.

00:35:02: Now, this allows us time to analyze those demands and determine the best way of responding.

00:35:10: That has some parallel with business community.

00:35:13: It's okay if you take a timeout but we've really raised very challenging issues here.

00:35:28: feels about this, let's meet again tomorrow or the day after whatever it might be.

00:35:33: Slowing things down like that can be a valuable tool for you to

00:35:37: use.".

00:35:37: It is very important.

00:35:39: take your time

00:35:41: and

00:35:41: maybe take a timeout also in B-to-B negotiations.

00:35:46: so I don't know if you would answer my following question but there are not much greater Other mistakes.

00:35:59: and so looking back.

00:36:01: What was your biggest mistake?

00:36:03: And what you learned from it?

00:36:06: well, I

00:36:07: would say It's more of an institutional mistake and that's the famous Waco incident from nineteen ninety three.

00:36:14: You know fifty one days a religious zealot A very controlling manipulative narcissistic individual in his faithful followers.

00:36:27: you know, it began with another federal agency trying to do a search warrant and an arrest warrant over farms violations.

00:36:36: A shootout ensued in four ATF alcohol tobacco farms.

00:36:41: agents were killed, seventeen wounded and five or six cult members were killed.

00:36:47: so now they call on the FBI say resolve it.

00:36:49: well You don't want to start a negotiation With.

00:36:52: yeah It's.

00:36:53: that's very uncomfortable spot.

00:36:56: You can imagine the level of emotion and anger, and frustration.

00:37:00: He can't very well come in say hey I'm Gary with The FBI let's be friends.

00:37:04: you know it's not so easy.

00:37:06: So it took a great deal of time to re-establish that connection.

00:37:10: my negotiation team That i had.

00:37:12: we slowly began To get people out but It was quite an expensive operation A million dollars a day.

00:37:18: In nineteen ninety three There Was a lot Of public Pressure Ant sentiment Against these People.

00:37:24: pressure on the FBI to just go in and get them, they killed federal agents.

00:37:28: Go kill

00:37:28: him."

00:37:29: That's what you do, FBI?

00:37:30: And there were even leadership people of the FBI that wondered why is negotiations taking so

00:37:35: long?".

00:37:36: Again I had to fight that argument.

00:37:39: patients take our time... There are ups-and-downs.

00:37:42: when you plot a negotiation it's not always headed into right direction.

00:37:46: sometimes you go up then you go down little bit than you go out again ...then your go down.

00:37:51: It's volatile based on human behavior.

00:37:54: Well, we finally ran into conflict between the tactical people and the negotiation team.

00:38:05: And there was a different philosophy.

00:38:07: We wanted to talk them out.

00:38:09: The tactical team wanted to force them out so that they would go forward with a tank or do something sort of controversial and this caused problems for us, then take a couple of days to get back on track with negotiations.

00:38:25: And the problem we had was very volatile on-scene commander who didn't understand that were sending mixed signals despite being told.

00:38:34: he said well you guys do your thing.

00:38:35: they did their things.

00:38:37: I said You don't understand.

00:38:39: We have say.

00:38:40: in doing the same thing I was relieved half way through because i was viewed as an impediment Strong tactical action, and I was.

00:38:50: I'm guilty as charged but during my time we got thirty five people out including twenty one children For the remaining twenty-five days after I left.

00:39:00: they didn't get another person out at all no one And the FBI decided to put in tear gas.

00:39:06: The Davidians started a fire and over seventy people died.

00:39:10: now There is a ton of lessons To be learned in that incident And it was more a departure of what we knew how to do.

00:39:18: We had done major prison riots before, major sieges but in this case... ...we have bad leadership.

00:39:26: so we implemented changes to make sure that didn't happen again in the FBI.

00:39:33: The on-scene commander and the tactical leader were encouraged to retire.

00:39:38: I was given a promotion So the FBI defended itself publicly But is clear within we had departed from our typical procedures.

00:39:48: So that remains to this day, I mean it's a case just doesn't go away and i get asked about every week.

00:39:53: um...I've stopped doing interviews on recently but enough is enough..but uh...it'a huge case!

00:39:59: And its big historical event which gets raised all the time in America.

00:40:04: We can see also as documentary on Netflix in Germany.

00:40:10: and yeah ...big-big case.

00:40:12: oh my gosh.

00:40:14: Thank you so much.

00:40:15: Let's start our closing round, three questions and uh... You have to end the sentence please And the first is Negotiation.

00:40:25: in one sentence is

00:40:27: Patience.

00:40:28: Oh!

00:40:28: One word Okay

00:40:31: oh I haven't said it.

00:40:32: Yes okay that's good.

00:40:33: Yeah being patient The biggest illusion about negotiation Is?

00:40:45: never give the other person anything without getting something back.

00:40:50: If I can explain, making small concessions does not necessarily have us lose control or power.

00:41:01: it demonstrates that we're yeah small.

00:41:04: now they say i want a million dollars in gold bullion.

00:41:07: you don't say okay here's million dollars and go bullying on.

00:41:10: this is what You're talking to.

00:41:13: a guy that's gonna kill his wife and he wants the cigarette, you might give him a cigarette.

00:41:18: And I do that because i want to show them That i'm not there To make this day worse.

00:41:23: so im here to try help him.

00:41:25: But many in the negotiation business They give nothing unless they get something else.

00:41:31: So

00:41:32: if

00:41:33: it is all about relationship Then its a problem.

00:41:37: Precisely

00:41:39: Okay, and the last question of this evening in Germany.

00:41:43: This evening The most important thing people should understand about emotions is

00:41:50: I think When people are operating in a high emotional state they are unable to Think and behave rationally.

00:42:01: so the first as i mentioned earlier the first And most important task In negotiations work towards lowering the emotions.

00:42:12: Nothing positive can happen if we're yelling and screaming at each other, nothing positive will ever

00:42:18: happen.".

00:42:22: Thank you very much!

00:42:23: It was such a great pleasure...

00:42:25: My pleasure.

00:42:26: ...and also

00:42:26: a great honor.

00:42:27: I hope all the listeners hear what you say And they would buy your books darling for time.

00:42:34: it's a great book.

00:42:35: i read two times And I got your sign in it.

00:42:40: There you go!

00:42:41: Thank you again very much.

00:42:43: Well, It's my pleasure to be on the program with you and wish a great success with the podcast series.

00:42:50: Hopefully people will find some value In our

00:42:59: discussion.