026 NegotEmotion Keld Jensen Interview

00:00:00: Welcome to another episode of Negoti-Motion.

00:00:03: Today is a very special conversation for me.

00:00:05: Negotiation is often described as the art of getting a better deal, but what if negotiation could become something much bigger?

00:00:14: What if it became the science of creating value building trust and helping both sides leave the table stronger than before?

00:00:23: My guest today has dedicated decades of his life to answering exactly that question.

00:00:29: Professor Kelt Janssen is one of the world's leading negotiation thinkers, he is an internationally recognized speaker researcher, TEDx speaker author of more than twenty-five books published around the World and The Creator Of The Award Winning Smartnesship Negotiation Approach.

00:00:48: His work combines negotiation behavioral economics trust research and, more recently, artificial intelligence in ways that challenge many traditional negotiation models.

00:01:02: His newest developments including NegoDNA or Nego DNA explore how technology may help us better understand negotiation behavior while reminding us that successful negotiations will always remain deeply human.

00:01:18: Kelt!

00:01:19: It is truly an honor to welcome you to NegotiMotion.

00:01:23: Thank you very much for being here!

00:01:25: Thank you so much for inviting me!

00:01:26: Karl, after everything that we've learned about negotiation what have negotiations taught us how to be human?

00:01:34: That's a great question.

00:01:35: first and foremost I think we should take the step back And i can easily agree with you that life is all about.

00:01:42: negotiations has become kind of a mission for me is to educate the world of understanding, importance of negotiation.

00:01:51: I think in all fan is that kids in elementary school should start learning negotiation because it's such a huge part of everything from relationship with your family, your spouse, you're kids, your neighbors, insurance companies and authorities... You know?

00:02:06: It's a negotiation all the time!

00:02:08: And, you know I still find here in twenty-twenty six christians so many people when i'm sitting at a dinner party and People are asking what do You're doing?

00:02:16: And I say well.

00:02:16: I'm an advisor In negotiation then...I mean A lot of people says Well!

00:02:21: I never negotiate.

00:02:22: So there's Still this perception among Millions Of people that I don't Negotiate.

00:02:28: It is interesting to me because When I start explaining What negotiation isn't Then everybody agrees within five minutes.

00:02:35: Oh..i do Negotiates alot.

00:02:37: But it's just interesting to me that so many people don't see that.

00:02:40: So I think one of the important things for you and i, And People like us That we really try and raise The awareness Of negotiation because when You look around at us...I Don't Think the world is doing that well.

00:02:54: Part of reason Is now being rude but We have some horrible Negotiators um that are sitting sometimes in very, very important situations where the ego get in the way.

00:03:04: Right?

00:03:05: And that's not a very competent capable negotiator obviously.

00:03:08: so I'm sorry it's a very long answer to your question but i could talk about this for hours!

00:03:13: It is really human capability something that is essential for us as human beings to understand the psychology and purpose of negotiation.

00:03:24: Great and if then it's okay when the answer is wrong.

00:03:29: It takes time!

00:03:30: So, let us start with your person who was Kelt Janssen before becoming Dr.

00:03:35: Kelt-Janssen?

00:03:36: I wasn't unconsciously incompetent negotiator and you know that's a nice place to be because you don't what you do not know

00:03:46: right?!

00:03:47: Very briefly, I was an executive in a public tech company.

00:03:51: I was the head of this rather big company and i thought that it's great negotiator because you know build up nice career doing great.

00:04:00: The Company Was Doing Well.

00:04:01: So I Thought Hey!

00:04:02: I Must Be A Great Negotiator.

00:04:03: And then we actually hired my partner who founded the organization all the way back in nineteen seventy six in Stockholm In Sweden.

00:04:11: Uh, I never forget it.

00:04:13: I'm not exaggerating my story.

00:04:14: in less than two hours he moved me from being unconsciously incompetent to constantly incompetent and that was a horrible wake up call because suddenly I realized do you know what?

00:04:28: And I've never had any formal training in negotiation.

00:04:31: I'd ever read a book on negotiation before I met him, and that made me realize this was specifically in Nineteen Ninety-Eight... ...and that make me realise.

00:04:38: perhaps i'm not the only executive in the world who are just negotiating based on experience or based on what you think is right and wrong.

00:04:46: so um I changed career right there.

00:04:49: then um uh jumped ship and left the tech industry to move into the negotiation advisory business where have been since and work together with my partner, simply because I had a moment where realized as we just talked about this is so important.

00:05:07: And we have so many people walking around out there who are doing it without knowing what they're really doing including myself.

00:05:14: Germany will say for that unconscious incompetence That's the comfort zone.

00:05:22: And if you don't know that, You could know something else... ...you are staying there and think your'e best but thats a move!

00:05:29: Right?

00:05:30: Okay right

00:05:32: I-I-I Think chrisen if i can add one more thing One thing im advocating alot for.. ..i think The world of negotiation is full Of opinions & less facts.

00:05:41: There so many people.

00:05:42: when we look on social media They have opinion about negotiations.

00:05:45: Some of them are right obviously But there's a lot of people just have opinions which is not based on research fact.

00:05:52: I'm a strong believer in research facts, something that has been researched and we can prove it as being documented.

00:05:58: And back to myself because i am no better than anybody else Back in nine to ninety eight if you ask me about negotiation ,I would have tons of opinion But they could all be wrong because this is based on my experience and my experience may work for me, but it may not work.

00:06:13: For you or a thousand other people right?

00:06:15: so I get a little bit annoyed almost every day in LinkedIn when i see somebody's So-called expert coming out there sharing an opinion about negotiation again as he said sometimes They're right?

00:06:31: If you're building a bridge, would you like to have the engineer building it based on opinions or research fact?

00:06:37: You know.

00:06:38: It's obvious.

00:06:39: so why is negotiation different?

00:06:41: Why do we listen to opinions and not research facts?

00:06:44: I think that's an important milestone for me as well To educate everybody to actually look back at where's information coming from.

00:06:53: Is somebody opinion Or something that is factual That

00:06:57: really important thing?

00:06:59: Often they don't tell your facts But they tell you sentences that started with, You must.

00:07:10: to watch what says the science.

00:07:19: And after that, which strategy is the best?

00:07:21: It's also a problem of what's better Harvard program or the FBI's program.

00:07:28: and I did an interview with Gary Nessner from the FBI and he told me I'm a lousy business negotiator but i can negotiate about relationship management and relationships.

00:07:38: oh yeah

00:07:39: absolutely yes.

00:07:40: so in my opinion it's both.

00:07:42: But we don't have

00:07:44: to forget

00:07:44: The Science

00:07:46: Complete degree.

00:07:47: I think if I could add a comment to that, you know?

00:07:49: If-I often say Christian...if somebody called me and said there's a hostage negotiation going on three streets from here Could you come help

00:07:55: out?".

00:07:55: I would say no i can't because I have no idea how to deal with the hostess negotiations.

00:08:00: And same thing goes when we look at Hostess Negotiators..i admire what they're doing!

00:08:04: I think it is amazing.

00:08:05: but You should not put them into business commercial context Because They don´t Know What they are Doing in There Just like I Don´T Know What Im Doing In A Hostess Negociation.

00:08:13: So We Have To Realize That There are so many directions in negotiations as well.

00:08:17: And I call myself a commercial negotiator, that means i'm focused on data and numbers.

00:08:25: So that's my angle into negotiation.

00:08:27: Then you have negotiators who are really good at conflict handling and you have Negotiators, we're good at the hostess negotiations And you haven't negotiated.

00:08:33: is that a good political negotiations?

00:08:35: But it's very different areas.

00:08:38: and yeah obviously I'm not that bright because i can't cope with all of That.

00:08:42: I just have to focus on one thing and I think that goes for quite A lot Of people.

00:08:46: Yeah

00:08:46: true yes was there in negotiation early In your life?

00:08:50: that completely changed The way You Think About People?

00:08:53: Well, yeah.

00:08:54: That's a great question.

00:08:54: I would actually say the negotiation i had with my former partner when he joined us.

00:08:58: that was a revelation to me because He Was using all The toolbox himself that he later taught Me.

00:09:03: so that was uh...that was A remarkable wake-up call for me When i suddenly realized All this stuff i've missed out previously.

00:09:11: So there were lessons learned in real time.

00:09:14: Yeah

00:09:14: lot of motivation starts

00:09:16: then.

00:09:17: So you often speak about trust.

00:09:20: is trust something that exists before negotiation or something?

00:09:24: That can actually be negotiated.

00:09:26: Yes, wonderful question again Christian I would say first and foremost often when i talk about Trust all the time I meet clients who says yeah Trust it's a nice thing to have then I stop them interrupt You know what, it's not a nice thing to have.

00:09:41: It's the needed things you have.

00:09:43: because when I found and did my doctorate studying trust in negotiation then our purpose was trying quantify trust And thank God i was lucky dash good Because we succeeded doing that.

00:09:54: We actually found that in negotiations with high level of trust you capitalise more than thirty percent value Than in negotiations With low levels of trust.

00:10:02: So...we could prove In our study That Trust is Not A Nice Thing To Have.

00:10:07: We Can Quantify Trust, it has a monetary value.

00:10:10: So that's why I have renamed trust in negotiation into trust currency.

00:10:14: so i just put the two words currency and trust together because It is a monetary Value.

00:10:18: back to your question.

00:10:19: Trust Is something That you Have To Negotiate as well.

00:10:22: And what?

00:10:22: I often say Christian that sometimes provoke people is usually Put trust on The agenda.

00:10:27: So besides having, you know welcome who's?

00:10:30: Who?

00:10:30: what are we going to talk about today.

00:10:32: What is the purpose?

00:10:33: there should be an item called trust and The reason I find that this sometimes provoked people Is because people say well We can't Talk About Trust.

00:10:40: And i say why not?

00:10:41: You Know since it's so essential and It carries a huge value Why shouldn't we Be able To Talk About Trusso if you and I were Negotiating christian i would i Would Say to you If you Feel That Trust Is Declining in Our Relationship Please Tell Me And I should be allowed to do the same because we have to correct them, Because i'm not purposely trying To reduce trust.

00:11:00: I want try Trust to be as high As possible but if I say something and Do Something I am Not aware of please let me know!

00:11:07: Because I Have an interest just like you in Keeping trust at a High level as Possible.

00:11:12: You Know We can all agree that Trust is something That takes some time to create.

00:11:16: Then we Can lose it In A second right?

00:11:18: Yes But instead of just playing games in negotiation, and I'm not a fan of playing games or using tactics so manipulating.

00:11:25: Or whatever you have?

00:11:26: I think negotiations is about creating and distributing value.

00:11:29: So to me, negotiation is kind of a puzzle that you and i work out together.

00:11:35: So it's not about beating You are beating Me.

00:11:37: It's about figuring out the Puzzle Together And then we won against The Game.

00:11:41: That's the Purpose Of While We Negotiating transparent without becoming naive and have a certain level of trust in each other.

00:11:51: I'm not saying we should become naïve, i'm just saying trust will generate more

00:11:54: value.".

00:11:54: I don't even know if my answer to your question right now has got off on

00:11:57: something but... No that's great!

00:11:59: And it tells us about the negotiator dilemma because less information you give to another person yes?

00:12:12: Absolutely So yeah, great answer.

00:12:17: And will it always work?

00:12:18: Of course not!

00:12:19: You'll have a situation where trust is low... It's very hard to generate trust and then obviously you have make up your mind.

00:12:25: do I want to business with that counterpart or not?

00:12:27: Yes sometimes we've got the full open truthful exchange.

00:12:33: There are different situations in which you look at each negotiation.

00:12:39: Yes, so what is the biggest mistake even experienced negotiators continue to make?

00:12:46: Oh how many hours do we have Christian.

00:12:51: I think it seems very simple and It really is but i would say i keep coming back To The same thing.

00:12:58: people are not listening And asking questions.

00:13:01: yeah They're Not Listening Through What you're Really Saying.

00:13:05: So let me give You an Example.

00:13:06: if you come to Me and Say Okay, I want to change delivery time by three weeks.

00:13:10: I may be answering no i can't do that.

00:13:14: or i might say okay we Can do that.

00:13:16: both of them are wrong what?

00:13:18: I should Do is actually listening To What you're saying and replace the sound Of the word with account With a sound of a cash register because when You're raising an interest your having our financial value in changing That variable.

00:13:30: so my response to you Should Be Oh, that's interesting Christian.

00:13:33: What is the value to you?

00:13:34: We change that delivery time and now my purpose as a negotiator is figuring out what does your value versus my cost.

00:13:43: Now if your value is higher than my costs we have generated what I call negotiation economics, NECO economics which is the asymmetric value And i should be happy taking on a cost of your values higher then my cost and you're willing to compensate my cost.

00:13:59: thereby we create that value.

00:14:01: Back to your question.

00:14:01: What is the biggest mistake?

00:14:03: The biggest mistake, a lot of people are egocentric so they're sitting there thinking with their papers oh if we change delivery time that will cost me half a million euros and then I just say no!

00:14:14: And i'm not even considering what you value might be.

00:14:17: My colleague from Harvard University Dan Shapiro.

00:14:20: Oh she's one

00:14:21: my teachers

00:14:22: Great.

00:14:23: He's one of my superstars, I love him.

00:14:26: yes he is great his outstanding and One other things Dan has been talking about And you probably heard that from him as well.

00:14:33: Is it a call?

00:14:33: About the tribal effect.

00:14:34: You know we all tribal.

00:14:36: That means that if you and i agree on something We have a hard time accepting somebody.

00:14:40: that are disagreeing with you and I right and that is A problem.

00:14:44: i know we always blaming social media but thats The Problem that Social Media and Algorithm Has Just Increased Because we're getting feedied with everything that just agrees.

00:14:52: With your opinion and that's a problem in negotiation as well because I think this agreement is healthy.

00:14:58: That is where?

00:14:59: We developed that additional value.

00:15:02: if which has agreed on Everything they'll be horrible my god, it would be boring right and we wouldn't create an asymmetric values.

00:15:07: So anyway long question to you true Long answer to your question.

00:15:11: listening And asking questions would be two of the key things i would advise most negotiators to be aware.

00:15:16: mm-hmm

00:15:17: yeah and uh Now we come, yeah.

00:15:20: Probably to your life's work.

00:15:22: if you had only three minutes or five to explain smartnesship To someone who has never heard about it What would you tell

00:15:29: them?

00:15:30: Yeah what I sometimes find is that some negotiation philosophies in the world Is just trying to make the horse and the bucky run faster.

00:15:37: If you know what i mean We are trying to change and creating the cup.

00:15:44: What we're doing really is trying to have people rethink what negotiation isn't, so we are not focused on just giving you more tools and techniques or tactics for winning your negotiations.

00:15:57: outweigh the counterpart.

00:15:59: We start talking about what is negotiation?

00:16:03: And actually a term called Role of Engagement where we talk that we need to negotiate before we negotiate.

00:16:11: And, you know often when I say that question people look at me like i'm crazy but i'm serious about it because.

00:16:16: People perceive negotiation very differently right?

00:16:18: You may see negotiations like playing tennis...I may perceive negotiation like playing chess.

00:16:24: so when we meet up and have not pre negotiated on how to negotiate, you start playing your game and I stop playing my game.

00:16:32: And we could be doing this for hours or days before we figure out how to play

00:16:35: together.".

00:16:36: Why not just verbalize that?

00:16:37: back to what we talked about trust?

00:16:39: Right why don't I just verbalized it and say hey Christian i would like to talk about How are supposed to negotiate today.

00:16:45: Are We going To Be Open and Transparent?

00:16:47: What are the variables we need to discuss?

00:16:48: Are You willing Share Your Costs On Your Benefit So on and so forth?

00:16:52: So Smarter Ship is about changing the mindset of how we negotiate.

00:16:57: So if we divide the role, you know that as well?

00:16:59: We often talk about...we have positional negotiation and collaborative negotiations.

00:17:03: so we talked about zero-sum games partnership.

00:17:06: and then we added smartness because people often get confused about partnerships.

00:17:12: I mean i've been doing this for many years And often when I ask an organization what are your official approaches to negotiation ?

00:17:18: I meet some organizations who say oh partnership !

00:17:21: When they really dig in and try to figure out what they're doing to suppliers or clients.

00:17:26: They are really just doing zero sum, but it's been repeatedly doing zero-sum for six

00:17:31: years.".

00:17:31: And then the call in partnership.

00:17:32: that is not a partnership obviously because its not collaborative.

00:17:36: so we basically also called it partnership version two dot zero.

00:17:40: It's just an add-on to partnership.

00:17:43: So you could say the big difference between smartness and partnership is trust, the Trust Currency Party which we've talked about.

00:17:50: it is NECR economics as what I just talked about.

00:17:53: It is role of engagement discussing the rules of the game how we should negotiate.

00:17:57: And fourth and final its about creating a strategy.

00:18:01: We can ask your listeners right now How many have an official negotiation strategy in your organization?

00:18:07: I bet that majority don't.

00:18:09: And this is one of the other things that we argue when we look at organizations, they are more successful than others.

00:18:15: They have created a strategy just like they have research and development strategies or go to market strategy or sell strategy communication strategy HR strategy all you know All the other strategies that business school has taught us that we need but don't have a negotiation strategy.

00:18:30: anyway.

00:18:30: That was short version of what is smart ship?

00:18:32: Yeah very cool!

00:18:34: In Germany many companies dont'.

00:18:37: I see that all over the world.

00:18:40: When i sit with a group of people, let's say fifty executives in their room and ask them raise your hand if you have a negotiation strategy?

00:18:47: Usually get about four or five to raise their hands And then I asked him about his strategy and half are wrong.

00:18:52: It is not a tactic.

00:18:53: they're explaining.

00:18:54: So two organizations out at fifty who actually has a strategy?

00:18:58: We need one

00:18:59: Yes, and I think also it's very important.

00:19:02: The map is not the territory And before the negotiation we have to learn about each other To know what you say.

00:19:10: What is your strategy?

00:19:12: What is my strategy?What are we talking about?

00:19:15: That's very very important.

00:19:17: So i don't now if u answered yet But maybe concretely Harvard

00:19:30: and I agree on most of we, there was actually a study conducted where five leading negotiation methods in the world were compared.

00:19:38: On trust creation value generation and long-term outcome.

00:19:43: And i'm happy to say that don't want it back but smartly came out as the model they created most value followed by harvard.

00:19:49: cool!

00:19:50: The model that did worst was chris fos.

00:19:52: basically didn't generate a lot and did not generate trust.

00:19:58: It was actually perceived as a very manipulating approach into

00:20:02: negotiation."

00:20:02: He was the pupil of Gary Nessner?

00:20:04: Yeah, so anyway I thought that was interesting!

00:20:07: So i would say great question what is the big difference between Harvard and and smartness?

00:20:11: Smartness is a bit more commercial.

00:20:13: we are very focused on numbers.

00:20:16: back to negotiation economics.

00:20:18: Harvard model contains a lot of great stuff.

00:20:21: I don't really disagree with anything Harvard is doing, i think it's a marvelous organization during great work.

00:20:26: but we just add an economics and are very focused on the asymmetric more than this psychology part off negotiation if that makes sense.

00:20:34: yeah okay

00:20:34: yes so i'm.

00:20:36: i'm uh very excited because now comes the nigo dna.

00:20:42: I did one, but before that many people are fascinated and maybe a little concerned about AI entering negotiations.

00:20:53: What inspired you to create NegoDNA?

00:20:57: Yes great question.

00:20:58: let's go back about two years three years ago together with the president of world commerce in contracting Mr Tim Cummins we ran worldwide study on AI.

00:21:10: So what we did very briefly was, We had four hundred and forty three teams of two people that were negotiating with each other.

00:21:18: And we just repeated the study over.

00:21:19: no again in what we do.

00:21:20: Very short version off it you can actually download the peer reviewed research paper called a friend or foe for free.

00:21:27: so Just Google that.

00:21:29: but What?

00:21:30: We Did?

00:21:30: Was We Had Teams Negotiating Old School With Each Other.

00:21:33: That Means Without Using AI.

00:21:36: Then we compared the outcome of this simulation.

00:21:38: They all had the same time to prepare and conduct a negotiation, And they were all negotiating in the same simulation.

00:21:43: then We had our different negotiations where one side was using AI?

00:21:47: The counterpart wasn't using AI.

00:21:49: so there's an unbalance... ...and then we have the third group but both parties are using AI.

00:21:54: Both were educated and skilled at using AI.. ..then we measured the outcomes from four different areas.

00:22:00: One was level-of preparation.

00:22:05: Not a big surprise.

00:22:06: The team not negotiating without AI was really that well prepared, the two teams negotiating with AI were really well-prepared.

00:22:16: Utilization of time...the old school negotiators always ran out on time.

00:22:22: they never managed to reach their deal within the allocated time..The two teams using AI every single within the allocated time.

00:22:31: Then we looked at value generation, which obviously had a huge interest to me and old school negotiators left a lot of value on the table.

00:22:38: Nacoeconomics was basically not captured.

00:22:41: The two teams using AI almost captured all their values.

00:22:47: And the fourth one, which was really interesting and a big surprise to me Christian.

00:22:50: I didn't see that coming but trust honesty in transparency went through the roof in negotiation where both sides were using AI.

00:22:58: Wow!

00:22:59: When two teams not using AI we're negotiating they will do as people are normally doing.

00:23:04: you know hiding numbers not being transparent bluffing lying what have you?

00:23:08: So i've had a lot of people come after would say so Are You Claiming that AI is helping people become more honest, open and transparent.

00:23:17: And my response is well.

00:23:18: according to this study it seems like the case.

00:23:21: Sounds crazy!

00:23:23: Yes

00:23:23: I agree.

00:23:24: If its

00:23:24: possible after the interview i will put a link into show notes because thats really cool.

00:23:33: I use AI in negotiations but also have to learn alot.

00:23:38: It costs not so much time.

00:23:40: And one of my teachers, Professor Michael Wheeler said also don't... You say Don't leave value on the table!

00:23:49: He says Don't Leave Money On The Table and that's the truth.

00:23:54: I think AI helps a lot.

00:23:56: But back to NegoDNA.

00:23:58: How does it actually work?

00:24:00: So what kind of information does it analyze?

00:24:03: How accurate are these predictions and where also you see the limits.

00:24:11: Yeah, well I would say...I'm a weird individual because i am a true believer in relationships between people.

00:24:18: I normally say that all business is human.

00:24:20: It's Christian and Kel that doing a business deal not your company or my company so I do believe in interpersonal relationship.

00:24:28: At the same time, I'm also probably one of the biggest fan of using AI in negotiation.

00:24:33: But simply because it's just such a great tool to assist us not only saving time but capture more value.

00:24:40: back to our study.

00:24:41: and so what we did was eight months ago We started a project creating um The smartness of negotiation co-pilot that is ready where Nego DNA is just one part of it.

00:24:53: So the co-pilot basic consists of seven different tools, One Is The Analyzer Where You Can Upload Contracts.

00:25:00: It Will Break Down The Contract Identify The Variables.

00:25:03: They Will Prioritize Them Into Different Tears.

00:25:05: Which One Of Them Is Generating Value?

00:25:07: Which One Should You Focus On?

00:25:08: How Can You Change The Language From Positional To Collaborative?

00:25:13: You have the AskKel module, which is basically kind of a chat box but based on everything we know about negotiation.

00:25:20: And then you have another module, the NegoDNA.

00:25:22: Now, Nego DNA.

00:25:23: it's interesting because it basically harvests legally all public available information about you.

00:25:30: so what I do basically is copy your LinkedIn profile put into this system And in about sixty, seventy, eighty seconds it reads your entire LinkedIn profile.

00:25:41: Your history of background you have education and your current job or previous jobs.

00:25:46: then compared to public available data based on that generates a twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen pages report.

00:25:54: basically identifying as a negotiator is accurate?

00:25:59: Not always because it depends upon the profile.

00:26:03: And I mean, I haven't asked you to do an assessment.

00:26:05: I'm just harvesting the public available information about view and would say it's probably ninety five percent accurate.

00:26:13: and i can promise one thing It is way more accurate than any people just assuming something before stepping into a negotiation.

00:26:19: So he gives you very credible picture of counterpart.

00:26:24: Before step in give your general idea Who is Christian?

00:26:28: I mean, is Christian more dominant.

00:26:29: Is he more influential?

00:26:31: will he be trying to a dominant?

00:26:34: ask the question Will it be more reluctant?

00:26:36: how do i generate trust?

00:26:38: what should i Do in my communication with christian?

00:26:40: What shouldn't i do?

00:26:41: How do i make sure rereads an agreement.

00:26:43: so The purpose again is not to manipulate the purposes To help generate better communication by trying to understand each other.

00:26:51: Now, what is funny?

00:26:53: Welcomeers and Contracting the non-profit organization just ran a study based on Nego DNA asking their audience of eighty thousand members how they felt about this tool.

00:27:03: And the fun part is Christian human beings are funny.

00:27:06: Eighty nine percent found that it was okay running in an counterpart but only seventeen percent found would be OK if the counterpart run it at you.

00:27:14: so we know its kind of funny isn't Yeah.

00:27:20: So, so people obviously found it awkward if the counterpart were doing it but its okay you run on somebody else and again I'm... It's not for me to get into an ethical discussion whether it is ethical or not.

00:27:33: however i would say Nego DNA don't use any information that you cannot look up yourself.

00:27:38: It will just take your much longer time and obviously, you don't get the same data treatment as it is offering.

00:27:45: so its basically giving a pretty accurate report.

00:27:47: but I'm curious Christian how do you see yourselves?

00:27:51: Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the content of this report?

00:27:56: I did it and i don't know, do you analyze my LinkedIn profile too?

00:28:00: Yes.

00:28:00: Ah cool!

00:28:01: So in my opinion we cannot avoid evaluating.

00:28:05: so... And that's the first....so..I think We build hypothesis

00:28:11: yes??

00:28:12: And thats science if we try to understand is right or wrong.

00:28:17: And yes, I read it and am very excited to hear your opinion about.

00:28:27: One sentence was a bit cruel.

00:28:30: The single most important thing is going into the room with Chris.

00:28:35: He will build genuine report fast and use it strategyally.

00:28:40: Do

00:28:40: not mistake warmth for softness.

00:28:45: And yes, it's true but in my opinion... It is all about attitude and how I use my power.

00:28:56: So

00:28:57: what kind of hypothesis would you probably gonna write me?

00:29:01: Correctly if i'm wrong!

00:29:02: You came out as a people person

00:29:04: right?!

00:29:04: You were one that likes appreciate the relationship.

00:29:11: You were high on influence.

00:29:14: So the relationship for you is obviously kind of important, so you are proactive communicating

00:29:21: and

00:29:22: focus on trust at your detail level.

00:29:25: I wouldn't say low but lower part probably not in a negotiation with you.

00:29:30: start all data details.

00:29:32: what have you?

00:29:34: Yes.

00:29:36: And then it focused the trust orientation, so you are an individual that would start with trust and if people don't earn their trust they will decline but not one who starts from low-trust and have to earn your trust.

00:29:46: So you're kind of a trusting individual that likes to believe in good human beings.

00:29:52: Your default negotiation style is empathy assertive basically as we just talked about.

00:29:57: You go into the relation part.

00:29:59: Then goes on what I shouldn't do.

00:30:01: For instance It says avoid Don't open in a negotiation with Chris, don't open with aggressive positional anchors or purely transactional framing.

00:30:10: This will activate his legal defenses and close the relational

00:30:13: channel.".

00:30:16: But it's really great to read this.

00:30:20: people should Google you and find if they would like me.

00:30:26: I can put into show notes because It is very interesting.

00:30:32: I reflected and it costs a lot of minutes or maybe hours to reflect this professionally.

00:30:41: But yeah, in my opinion its great!

00:30:43: It's another version of the classical disc model... In my opinion is much deeper.

00:30:50: so thank you for this model!

00:30:55: We actually created a version of it as well that we call the deal table, and it works differently because if I know I'm going into negotiation with you next week.

00:31:05: I can go to Deal Table and fill out my own assessment then send off an invite for you do the same.

00:31:12: So Deal Table will reach out to me say Hi Chris would you mind filling this one up?

00:31:18: And share information and will create a report comparing the two of us.

00:31:24: So both of us, we'll have access to this same information so I can see where are we compatible?

00:31:28: And where may we get into

00:31:31: trouble?".

00:31:32: And then we just open about it... It's basically like marriage counseling!

00:31:37: We talk openly about differences before we actually go into negotiation.

00:31:40: That

00:31:40: builds again trust.

00:31:43: Yeah, okay.

00:31:44: Very really very cool!

00:31:45: Thank you for that.

00:31:46: and let's come to one of my favorite thing in negotiations.

00:31:51: You said it a few seconds ago.

00:31:54: It is Emotion.

00:31:56: My podcast called Negoti-Motion because I deeply believe every negotiation is emotional before it becomes rational.

00:32:04: Do you agree?

00:32:05: Yes, I do.

00:32:06: Um...I think all people are irrational and we make conclusions on emotions And then we add the fact later onto proof that our emotional decision was absolutely right.

00:32:15: i couldn't agree more.

00:32:16: What emotions create?

00:32:17: The greatest value at the negotiation table?

00:32:19: That's a good question.

00:32:21: One of the things that I often tell Our clients is that Emotions are great.

00:32:25: We cannot outrule them because it's part Of human beings.

00:32:28: However..we also have to be rational Because emotions come partly from biases And the bias is not necessarily correct.

00:32:36: You know, I may have a bias against certain people that say engineers?

00:32:41: I think engineers are boring detail focused and they're not open to generate

00:32:45: necoeconomics.".

00:32:46: That's wrong!

00:32:46: That's just my bias.

00:32:47: right but it may not be true.

00:32:49: But if i got that bias every time I meet somebody who was an engineer... ...I will put on that frame thinking they are not able to do whatever.

00:32:58: So we also have to be careful with the emotional part part of the reason that I enjoy AI, because for instance like The Negotiation DNA it becomes more rational.

00:33:08: Because AI...I'm not saying doesn't have biases..because AI do have biases but its less than with human beings.

00:33:14: so we can get a more rational challenge to our biases.

00:33:18: why i enjoy AI.

00:33:20: let me give you an example.

00:33:21: my wife and I both have timber.

00:33:24: So once in a while, we have a fight.

00:33:26: Nothing serious?

00:33:26: We've been married for long time so we survive it every time.

00:33:29: but...we had the fight about stupid things like as marriage couple might have and I don't know.

00:33:35: one year ago i was thinking this AI thing.

00:33:37: can that actually help into marriage issues!

00:33:42: One of our fights called for break.

00:33:44: when went to my home office and typed-in her feelings.

00:33:49: what she said And AI, this was chat TVT at that point came out with the perfect explanation of why she is feeling what you're feeling.

00:33:58: Why I was feeling what I was filling and what we should do.

00:34:02: so I just took that solution from chat to be T went back into my wife and two minutes later all the problems were solved.

00:34:08: So, you know AI can actually take an angle like therapy and really help us out understand not only ourselves in the counterpart.

00:34:18: All of me people that say well I don't have emotions though it's true we don't Have emotion but doesn't mean he cant read Emotions And quite often is more objective In reading emotions than i am because If I'm in a fight with my wife, I am not objective.

00:34:32: But obviously thinking she's wrong and right?

00:34:35: You know.

00:34:35: so AI can help us a lot to talk about that Chris And I just saw study recently saying the number one user of AI here In US is self therapy.

00:34:44: So people are sitting at home using AI To deal with themselves

00:34:48: Yes and they're self-therapy.

00:34:50: um i think thats very dangerous to

00:34:54: talk

00:34:55: only With the AI About this but For your example, it's great.

00:35:00: It is one of the greatest things if we have velan!

00:35:05: So people also need to do something and know.

00:35:13: what role does empathy play in high stakes negotiations?

00:35:16: for you?

00:35:17: One thing that I am a big speaker in favor of having more women negotiating globally.

00:35:24: You know, when I see high-state negotiation globally it's all...I don't know if you have Fine Wally in Germany that cartoon where you have to find the character that is dressed in a certain way?

00:35:36: It's a kids book.

00:35:36: so you have look at these pictures with hundreds or people and then you'll need to find one individual.

00:35:44: Fine Waldo.

00:35:45: I call it find Waldo because when you look at high stake international negotiations, finding a woman in that group is like looking for fine Waldo.

00:35:55: You know there might be one out of twenty men but that's about it.

00:35:59: the reason i'm talking about this Is That?

00:36:01: I think and i'm generalizing that women are better negotiators than Men.

00:36:05: obviously i'm Generalizing But I Think They Have A lot Of Capabilities That Men Don't And one of them is empathy.

00:36:12: Men has a gene, and I'm generalizing now.

00:36:15: that makes us competitive.

00:36:16: so we often step into negotiation thinking i want to win!

00:36:20: The consequence could be that i win but lose the relations or i win right now but loose the long-term reaction.

00:36:26: women...and again..i'm generalising have a tendency to have higher empathy understanding and trying to understand the counterpart more than men.

00:36:36: So the reason I'm saying that is, again a long answer to your question.

00:36:45: We

00:37:01: come to the last four questions.

00:37:04: The first one is a very short, if there's one book what has changed your life?

00:37:09: One that changed my life was actually the original book I read by the founder of our organization Mr.

00:37:15: Und, a Swede.

00:37:17: He wrote his first book on collaborative negotiation in nineteen seventy six In Swedish.

00:37:22: it wasn't published in English.

00:37:24: That probably made me realize back that shoot, I'm a horrible negotiator.

00:37:31: I don't understand what negotiation is all

00:37:32: about.".

00:37:55: your work, Kel.

00:37:56: I know there are many videos online but maybe some places to find the best things about you.

00:38:06: Yeah, well we do have an online university where people can pick up courses self-paced or live learning.

00:38:13: I did LinkedIn Learning course as well.

00:38:16: that is free if you ever linked in premium account on AI specific how to use AI and negotiation.

00:38:22: We've had close to thirteen thousand People taking the course in less than a year now giving it an average rating of four point seven.

00:38:27: So either my wife has been in there thirteenth Thirteen thousand times and giving it a rating.

00:38:32: all people actually like It.

00:38:35: But that's two of the areas.

00:38:37: And obviously, I have a bunch of books that are out.

00:38:39: you can pick up and study the content even more.

00:38:42: one as he said there is lot free videos on this one

00:38:45: cool thank You.

00:38:46: so The last Two questions throughout your remarkable career have negotiations taught you more about closing deals or understanding yourself?

00:38:57: What did they reveal

00:38:58: both?

00:38:59: really if I should reveal something about myself very dominant and competitive.

00:39:04: And I get very frustrated if I feel something is unfair, what i learned about myself?

00:39:09: Is that I said... If I sit in a negotiation where I feel this is unfair ...I go straight into a very combative mode which is obviously not healthy.

00:39:17: so throughout the process you learn a lot about yourself as well both as a negotiator and as a human being.

00:39:23: but as back to what you said Christian I agree with since it is a very emotional process The reaction you have where you might have a disagreement or confrontation is probably part of view that.

00:39:34: You would see otherwise as well, and so that's one of the important lessons that you learn to deal with yourself right?

00:39:41: And you have to improve

00:39:41: yourself.".

00:39:42: I often say,"I'm not competing with anybody else in this world.

00:39:45: I am competing myself yesterday to become even better tomorrow".

00:39:49: That's-that's real challenge isn't

00:39:50: it?"And

00:39:50: thats... Thats uh.. That's a challenge for life!

00:39:54: Yeah its

00:39:55: never ending.

00:39:57: So i've learned alot about my self But I also learned how to close deals.

00:40:03: And I also learn to close deal is the right way, because i think there's a right way and wrong ways of closed deals.

00:40:08: as it said you can win that he'll but lose their relationship or even try when they're dealing in the relationship.

00:40:14: now some people thing that what are?

00:40:16: talk about his very softy softy because at all about your relationship with.

00:40:19: talk about trust by talking about creating that long-term relationships but not doing it just because we should be nice to each other do it because i know we become more profitable.

00:40:30: If we look at the famous Dr.

00:40:32: Nash who died just a few years ago, all of them found him so interesting that they even produced a movie about him.

00:40:38: and for those you don't know he was an American who basically invented game theory which is important foundation for negotiation.

00:40:47: He's got the Nobel Prize in economics Even further.

00:40:52: back in time, back to seventeen seventy six there was a Scottish philosopher by the name of Adam Smith who basically wrote The First Book on Negotiation.

00:40:58: It wasn't on negotiation but it was On how should nation trade with each other?

00:41:03: How should organization do business With Each Other?

00:41:05: and Adam Smith is called the father Of modern capitalism because he's saying that you Should Do only what Is good for yourself And not the counterpart.

00:41:15: That's the Only way You would win.

00:41:17: Now Dr.

00:41:18: Nash in the sixties came out and criticized that, And said you know what?

00:41:21: Adam Smith is absolutely wrong because The only way we all win Is when you do What's good for yourself and a counterpart at the same time.

00:41:28: That's the Only Way We Truly Win now.

00:41:30: um uh dr nas was not A socialist or commonist but he Was just doing this purely from a mathematical point of view.

00:41:36: and He could prove From a Mathematical Point Of View That You Become More Wealthy and I become more wealthy if We Collaborate.

00:41:43: Compared to what Adam Smith Said Then We Should Be Purely Ego Centric Again, long explanation.

00:41:49: But I believe in this system because why would i get hurt if you got more wealthy as well?

00:41:54: As I don't pay for it and Why Would It Hurt You If I Become More Wealthier If You're Not Paying For It?

00:41:59: Back To The Concept Of Necoeconomics.

00:42:01: It's

00:42:02: the Famous Prisoner Dilemma And it's a great movie, I think beautiful mind.

00:42:08: Yes exactly so.

00:42:10: let us look at this movie!

00:42:12: Dear listeners its'a great movie.

00:42:14: and now maybe comes the great last question i hope so many negotiation experts say that information is power.

00:42:26: my experience as an emotions coach.

00:42:29: Tell me that emotional awareness is power.

00:42:33: And if you had to choose only one, which one wins?

00:42:38: Great question!

00:42:39: I

00:42:40: never got the question in any podcast before and it sounds a little bit political but what i mean by this is... What negotiation philosophy do we believe in?

00:42:51: If you believe in zero-sum positional negotiations information is power because its about winning against the counterpart.

00:42:59: If you believe in collaborative negotiation that I believe, the emotional side is key because if you understand a counterpart more than information.

00:43:10: You will gain value out of it.

00:43:13: And the information you have is only half of the pie, because the counterpart has obviously other part.

00:43:22: If we don't get that out and just do a full circle where I said things negotiators are missing.

00:43:33: if you're not able to do it from an emotional intelligence approach you'll be losing out a lot of value and a lot information.

00:43:41: You may walk away thinking that one, but what do don't realize is all the information they didn't get from the counterpart?

00:43:50: Okay so it's both similar answer.

00:43:54: like Suskind asked negotiation an art or science?

00:43:59: Yes.

00:44:01: I

00:44:04: think it's true, however...I agree with that!

00:44:07: However in my work i'm trying to make more of a science because we can make research and document.

00:44:14: We can compare approaches to negotiations.

00:44:18: then see one approach is better than another.

00:44:21: as long you can document from the point-of-view it becomes science.

00:44:26: Very very fine.

00:44:28: I'm really, really happy.

00:44:30: Thank you!

00:44:31: It was such a pleasure

00:44:32: having you

00:44:33: in my podcast very cool and i hope if you come someday to Germany we can see us.

00:44:40: And uh... You're my guest.

00:44:41: so thank-you again for this great

00:44:48: interview.