034 NegotEmotion Nicky Perfect Interview

00:00:00: Welcome to a new episode of Negoti-Motion.

00:00:03: My guest today is someone whose professional experience takes the idea of a difficult conversation... ...to an entirely different level.

00:00:13: Nikki Perfect spent more than three decades with a metropolitan police in London, during her career she became a hostage and crisis negotiator dealing with situations in which emotions where at their highest trust was almost non-existent and sometimes the consequences of a conversation could literally be a matter of life or death.

00:00:36: She went on to become full time crisis negotiator, later director of UK Hostage & Crisis Negotiation Training helping train people responsible for some challenging conversations imaginable.

00:00:51: Today, Niki takes what she learned in those extreme situations and brings it into a completely different world.

00:00:57: Leadership, organizations business and everyday human communication.

00:01:04: She is proud to be a patron of Crest A charity dedicated to helping children And young people learn peaceful and constructive ways To resolve conflict.

00:01:18: true stories of my life as a hostage negotiator, in which she shares extraordinary stories from her career but perhaps even more importantly what those experiences taught her about people.

00:01:31: And this is exactly why I wanted to have her on the NegotiMotion because underneath all the techniques and strategies of negotiation lies something much more fundamental – human beings!

00:01:45: Human beings who want be heard who want to feel understood, who experience fear anger frustration shame or loss of control and Who sometimes become unable To hear our perfectly rational arguments precisely because their emotions are so strong.

00:02:06: Nikki's work raises questions that fascinate me.

00:02:09: What happens when emotion takes over?

00:02:11: How do we create trust When there is no Trust?

00:02:14: And how do we listen in a way that actually changes the conversation?

00:02:19: So today I want to explore what you can learn from extreme world of hostage and crisis negotiation.

00:02:26: How we apply those lessons to negotiations, leadership conflict and our everyday relationships.

00:02:32: Nicky!

00:02:38: Thank you very much.

00:02:39: It's a pleasure to be here and what lovely introduction he just gave me, thank you!

00:02:43: Yeah

00:02:43: it comes from the bottom of my heart.

00:02:46: So Nikki before we talk about negotiation techniques I would love to start with you.

00:02:52: You spent more than thirty years with The Metropolitan Police.

00:02:56: Who was the young Nikki Perfect who originally joined the police?

00:03:00: And What attracted you To that world?

00:03:03: That's a good question.

00:03:04: So the young Nikki Perfect was, well little bit wayward to be honest.

00:03:09: it was pretty easily led wanted to fit in a lot went to school mainly for sports chatting and music.

00:03:19: they were my three favorite subjects And had no kind of new.

00:03:25: so In the UK we do A levels and then go to university.

00:03:30: I Kind of knew that I probably wouldn't go to university but my dad definitely knew that i wouldn't enjoy University and he saw an advert for at the time we had something called The Police Cadets where you could go in as a young person, they would develop you for a year before you became a police officer.

00:03:50: And he gently guided me into that by showing me some pictures.

00:03:56: it triggered all the things I really enjoyed like being outside Doing things that challenged me like rock climbing and abseiling And hiking all those sorts of things, and I loved them.

00:04:07: So when i saw the advert?

00:04:08: When they told me.

00:04:09: They'd pay me it for me It was okay.

00:04:12: This is this Is The life For Me and That's how I ended up becoming a police officer.

00:04:17: and then once I've done my years cadet ship I went into the normal Police training school and Then I got posted to South London and that Was the beginning Of My career.

00:04:28: so thats That's the young me and how I fell into policing really.

00:04:33: It was the absolute best thing that ever happened to me, for me personally because it gave me direction then it made me discipline And it gave my routine and structure.

00:04:42: at that age of eighteen i really needed those things

00:04:47: All all the good things you need as a great negotiator

00:04:50: also absolutely yes.

00:04:52: so How did eventually become a hostage and crisis negotiator.

00:04:58: And do you remember your first real negotiation?

00:05:02: Yeah, I definitely remember the majority of them for a variety of different reasons but the first one...I think You always remember Your First Things especially when you learn such powerful lessons from The incident.

00:05:16: so i became a negotiator..i had twenty years service as a police officer ..i was an inspector.

00:05:22: I was working on the firearms teams in London.

00:05:25: So, in London we have a dedicated unit there called The Arms Response Unit and i was on that.

00:05:33: so I had forty-three men under me because when I joined it was very male dominated And I was one of seven women out of the unit of six hundred fifty.

00:05:46: It's different times.

00:05:48: Times changed to moved on but it was a time that I joined because i really wanted a different challenge and perhaps you can relate to this, some of your listeners.

00:05:59: But when I became an armed response officer ,I kind of realised it wasn't the right thing for me .

00:06:07: I felt like around Peg in a square hole didn't fit well with me.

00:06:13: It's very different way of policing people, I really like to find out their stories.

00:06:19: I liked helping them through the crisis.

00:06:22: that's what i enjoyed about policing and this was a different way not in wrong ways just another one but it is too different for me.

00:06:31: so i struggled with her.

00:06:33: while i was there a superintendent two ranks above me joined.

00:06:38: she became my mentor took under her wing kind of guided me, gently listened to me.

00:06:45: And every time Christian that I left the room with her... ...I felt like THE most important person in the world and there's something different about you.. ..and i don't know what it is but I KNOW YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING.

00:06:58: THAT HELPS ME TO FEEL VALIDATED.

00:07:01: Anyway!

00:07:01: It turns out she was a negotiator.

00:07:04: One day she said to me would you like to become a negotiater?

00:07:07: Have you thought about it?

00:07:09: because think you'd be good and I think you'd really enjoy it.

00:07:12: So, i went and researched that found out more about what negotiators actually did...I've worked with them lots of times before but they were always over there and I was here so I never really knew exactly what they did.

00:07:26: ...but the more I found out about it ,the more I was intrigued....and the more..i felt ..that it fitted with who I was as a person..... And then when for selection process is quite intense as you can imagine selection process.

00:07:41: And in December of two thousand and eight, I went on my course and that course literally changed what i believed to be true about negotiation communication.

00:07:52: if i'm honest i thought it was a pretty good negotiator and communicator before i went on the course...and i thought the course would be easy!

00:08:00: It really-it was the hardest course i'd ever done..And on communication, on connection.

00:08:09: And I'm so grateful to the people that were on that course who taught me how to be a negotiator and that was the start of just wanting more about it, wanting to learn more about humans and how we interact with psychology at the time.

00:08:29: So most police negotiators in UK do their day job they have a role And then they do it as an extra, apart from this full-time unit that had six people on.

00:08:41: That worked out of Scotland Yard and I kind have made my goal.

00:08:44: but i really wanted to get onto that unit... ...and I really want me be part of the training team who has such a impact in my life!

00:08:52: Five years later I managed to get into that unit.. ..and year after that was when became the director for the training.

00:08:57: so yeah it negotiated....that two week course really was a life changing turning point.

00:09:05: How many years do you spend to learn it?

00:09:09: So I was a negotiator for ten years in policing.

00:09:12: Ten years, okay.

00:09:13: Yeah so decade and i'm still learning now because every conversation that you have even where the emotions are higher... That doesn't.

00:09:23: now also i'm not negotiating with people whereas life or death but the skills that use my family.. With my team ,with customers with those people that I meet on a day-to-day basis who might be having a crisis for whatever reason, like friends whose dealing with a loss change in relationship or perhaps at work.

00:09:45: They all involve human emotions.

00:09:48: and so the same skills i've been using... And I'm still learning because I don't always get it right!

00:09:55: In fact I often get it wrong especially when its an emotional conversation.

00:10:01: Yeah, so you start with your two-week course and then you can develop.

00:10:06: And go on to learn... That's the other thing I loved about being a negotiator is that you're encouraged to think outside of the box to develop yourself.

00:10:17: Then there are courses where you become a kidnapped negotiator or coordinator than an international negotiator when you get to travel the world working in behalf of Her Majesty's government And that's when you get to interact as well with other negotiators from across the world.

00:10:35: So yeah, just a brilliant time of my career and I really do want me talk about my first negotiation because i remember that one very well.

00:10:47: so in my first ever negotiation ,I remembered it because I wasn't expecting it .And I was on call and my phone rings.

00:10:55: You know when your not expecting something?

00:10:56: Your looking for and there like the name in the middle of screen is Stuart, and Stuart taught me how to be a negotiator.

00:11:05: so I look at that.

00:11:06: And then immediately i'm like oh okay this is it!

00:11:08: So I start get excited...I started getting you know..a little bit anxious maybe?

00:11:15: ...and now have lot things going through my head....so I speak to Stuart.

00:11:19: he tells me something's going on about ten minutes from where I live.

00:11:22: That young man has been released from prison very recently.

00:11:26: He was convicted of grievous bodily harm, which is a very serious assault here in the UK.

00:11:32: And he's been released and gone around to see his ex-partner.

00:11:35: They have a child together... ...he has never met with the child before.

00:11:40: The child is about two or three months old.

00:11:43: So she has an emotional conversation with her ex partner.

00:11:47: She alleges that he assaulted her but takes the child without permission.

00:11:52: There are big car chases all over London.

00:11:55: He's eventually stopped and surrounded by police officers.

00:11:59: Now, he locks himself in the car refuses to talk to anybody And his got me.

00:12:03: child then is holding a child up like a shield and Stuart says To me can you go down?

00:12:08: And negotiate the safe release of the young child?

00:12:10: and then they're safe release Of him.

00:12:13: so I'm like cross the casket no problem at all.

00:12:15: great on really looking forward to this.

00:12:17: and Then as i'm waiting For the car to pick me up and take me to the call I have like my whole belief system going on.

00:12:24: And this was important because This is where i really learned about The power of beliefs, and the power of seeing the world from someone else's perspective.

00:12:31: Because in my head I was nick the heroine negotiator that Was gonna arrive on the scene Have an amazing conversation with him.

00:12:40: he was gonna listen to me, I was going to listen him.

00:12:43: He's gonna open the door give me a child literally shake me by hand and gently be led away into police

00:12:49: custody.".

00:12:50: And of course none if that happened.

00:12:52: so i was there for about eight hours.

00:12:55: all in all...he said two things to me.

00:12:57: number one is you do not understand?

00:13:02: That one sentence.

00:13:03: when someone says that too it such powerful sentence because Underneath it, there is so much more meaning in that.

00:13:11: It's about There's no connection.

00:13:13: You're not listening to me I don't feel seen i don't Feel heard?

00:13:18: Don't feel like you value Me.

00:13:20: we haven't got any sort of relationship.

00:13:22: I definitely don't trust you And I learned how powerful That was the longer I became a negotiator and the more I learnt About humans.

00:13:31: The second one Was go away but maybe not so polite.

00:13:36: Well, you managed to get the child out of the car safely but he was tazered and then there was a big fight.

00:13:42: And I walked away from that negotiation thinking that i've failed... That i'd kind of failed him But it hadn't gone as planned!

00:13:50: Perhaps..I wasn't going be this negotiator who thought I would just have been capable of being.

00:13:56: It really made me question what are few things?

00:14:00: Sometimes in life when we had those conversations don't go very well.

00:14:05: They play on our minds they cause us to question ourselves and It's only after time of listening to other people I'm being mentored by the negotiators.

00:14:16: And working in negotiation that i realized all conversation had been about me Hadn't been about him, but hadn't stopped once and gone well What does the world look like at the moment for him?

00:14:29: Because I don't think he does see it a heroin negotiator middle-aged, middle class woman and is thinking well you're here to take my child away?

00:14:40: And I've only just met her.

00:14:42: You are also going to send me back to a place where i don't want to go!

00:14:45: If I had stopped the conversation would have been very different.

00:14:52: that's powerful.

00:14:53: so it was first lesson I learnt seeing from somebody else perspective how powerful beliefs can really help get under the surface of the initial conversation and build that human connection with somebody.

00:15:09: So I think both is important, but do you mean PTA or perspective taking ability?

00:15:16: Or Do You Mean Empathy?

00:15:19: Both!

00:15:20: Yeah.

00:15:21: so i definitely mean seeing the world from someone else's perspective And being able to open a conversation.

00:15:29: for example if now had that conversation again knowing all the things that I know, i would probably open it along the lines of.

00:15:39: I'm wondering if you're looking at me and thinking what on earth has a white middle-aged middle class woman got in with you?

00:15:46: You probably think I'm here to take your child away!

00:15:49: And then...I'm wondering If..if you're thinking I don't really care about you and just want to send you back to prison.

00:15:55: Now I might be wrong because That's the caveat.

00:15:57: Of course I might Be

00:15:58: Wrong!!

00:15:59: I'm Just Thinking....If I was sat where YOU were sat That's probably what would be going through my mind.

00:16:04: And then immediately, what happens is that the other person sees you're doing whatever you can to view the world from an empathetic point where your getting that connection and understanding

00:16:18: Do have also I think maybe a little fear?

00:16:22: And can fear even be useful too?

00:16:26: negotiator

00:16:27: Yeah i think they are if You know What it Is.

00:16:30: so I think one of the biggest things i learned as a negotiator is conscious communication.

00:16:37: And to really reflect and spend time on my beliefs.

00:16:41: so my triggers what, what triggers me?

00:16:43: What makes me emotional?What happens and why does that happen?

00:16:47: So when you're in conversation with somebody where there's life-and-death situation Of course it will be some fear definitely probably anxiety knowing how channeled into having a conversation where it becomes, I'm gonna say almost normal conversation.

00:17:08: so that allows you to build the relationship with the other person.

00:17:13: And sometimes I even think... You can say to another person, ''I am really fearful about what might happen

00:17:18: here.''.

00:17:21: That's about timing though and when are in your conversations with someone.

00:17:25: Yeah, I think the timing is very important in these situations.

00:17:30: But if you are emotional do have one or two tricks and techniques.

00:17:36: how can you prevent your own emotions from taking control of conversation?

00:17:46: Yes definitely so.

00:17:47: there's a lot research around something called The Ninety-Second Rule.

00:17:54: Emotions, imagine emotions are like waves so they come and go on a regular basis.

00:17:59: And what we want to be able to do is consciously recognise how it shows up for us.

00:18:06: So if you imagine because we don't all get on with everybody There often people in our lives where can think about one person or particular subject that we know When we talk to that person or have a communication with the other, it causes us anxiety and pushback.

00:18:26: Do I need this conversation again?

00:18:30: Whatever might be for you!

00:18:33: Think about where that shows up physically... For me is in my shoulders.

00:18:40: as soon as they start getting stressed My heart starts beating faster.

00:18:46: That is my trigger that if I say something right now, it's going to be a reaction.

00:18:53: So and Now i have to buy myself some time And the ninety second rule works on principle but If you don't react for ninety seconds.

00:19:02: so if You just keep quiet?

00:19:04: if you Just Reflect On what's happening To you maybe even just leave The room Maybe.

00:19:09: so here in the uk we love A good cup of tea because It solves everything.

00:19:15: I might just say, and don't know about you but i could really do a drink would you like one?

00:19:19: And that takes me out of the situation for a little bit.

00:19:23: It might be if i know the person really well.

00:19:25: so perhaps i'm emotionally involved...I might just to them..i can't have this conversation with you right now because i can feel that i'm getting angry whatever it might be.

00:19:36: um let's have this conversations later on ,and i'll go away .And i will do that with family partner, sometimes with my mum you know just being really conscious enough to go.

00:19:51: let's not have this conversation now.

00:19:52: I teach sister parents a lot because often we react when especially if we have teenagers we tend to react.

00:19:58: so it's and this is a great tip If You Are A Parent of walking away from the conversation.

00:20:03: So the ninety-second rule, so buy yourself some time whatever that might be.

00:20:07: And for me sometimes I literally now just put up...I will sit with my hand across my mouth because it'll stop me from saying anything!

00:20:14: So i'll go right..i've got the reaction and can feel the reaction ..I'm going to do this okay?

00:20:19: Now I have done something physically but hopefully we'll break that state.

00:20:23: ...and now I am gonna come back into listening mode find out what's really going on in the other person .

00:20:30: That works for me.

00:20:31: It sounds simple.

00:20:33: It's taken years of practice.

00:20:35: Yes, yes because it has to work automatically.

00:20:40: That is the problem – like a physical body anchor that holds your finger into your lips.

00:20:50: Viktor Frankl says... I only know this in German but i tried to translate it….

00:20:56: There is space between trigger and reaction And you have to find this space and there's a lot of power in the space.

00:21:07: To breathe, think about it... ...to put your finger on your lips or something like that.

00:21:12: That has to be trained for sure

00:21:14: Yeah!

00:21:21: So maybe not also in kidnapping situations but also business situation If someone is angry or frightened, or desperate what do you first?

00:21:34: So the first thing I'll let them be that and make it safe for them to be.

00:21:40: That so if i see an emotion...so if somebody is perhaps angry then The First Thing I'll Say Is It Sounds Like You're Really Angry About Something And Then like, so I love the tell me explain describe and they never used to get these three things.

00:22:05: So we talk about big open questions.

00:22:06: you know when ask a nice open question too Get more information from somebody The what who how where Why sort of questions although it can be a bit cautious around why because It can sound a bit authoritarian.

00:22:23: And then there is Tell Me Explain To Me and Describe To Me And I never used to get those questions.

00:22:28: Well, why don't we just use the open question?

00:22:30: Why would we use

00:22:30: those?".

00:22:32: Then i started doing some more research around philosophy and it comes from... The tell me bit comes from Marcus Aurelius in conflict management.

00:22:39: so this is not a new thing.

00:22:40: This is many years old like most negotiation communication skills Many many years Old!

00:22:47: He said when you say Tell Me To Somebody what your showing them Is that You're listening From point of view, a curiosity and understanding rather than I disagree with you.

00:23:01: And just want to wait for my turn in the conversation.

00:23:04: that is such powerful de-escalation question.

00:23:08: so i will label the emotion um...I can see very angry about this.

00:23:14: tell me exactly what it's making you angry now great thing about humans.

00:23:18: we'll tell other person if not angry say no!

00:23:22: Im not angry im frustrated brilliant tell me exactly what is it that's making you so frustrated.

00:23:28: And then we listen, and we listened to what they're saying and-and they will tell us what's going on.

00:23:33: They might not even know!

00:23:35: To be honest...they might think its something over here.

00:23:38: like in business often if you implement change You get reactionary behaviour.

00:23:43: Maybe somebody's angry because their fearful about losing the job or their fearful of out going into a new role That don't feel very comfortable with or they're fearful that everything's changing and they like the way things are because it's nice and secure.

00:23:57: And so we start to get that little bit of reactionary behavior, maybe a bit of anger may be a bit frustration... Maybe a new software That you've bought in isn't working properly and everybody is like up in arms, don't work!

00:24:10: I told you we shouldn't have changed those sorts of thing.

00:24:13: They just every day things.

00:24:14: but that's the reaction.

00:24:17: So look i can see really frustrated.

00:24:21: Tell me exactly what it is.

00:24:22: I can't do my work on this new system.

00:24:24: It used to be so easy before and now, its really hard.

00:24:27: And then we just give them a good listening too Not try and fix the problem straight away.

00:24:33: Right well if you do this This will work.

00:24:36: Let's hear them first.

00:24:38: Let's label What they're saying.

00:24:40: let's Work out whats going On for them as an individual.

00:24:43: Then lets work together To see how We Can Fix it Together.

00:24:47: Very cool, and I think that's the cause.

00:24:51: That it is called active listening because you listen but don't be quiet.

00:24:58: You ask questions like as said And i think thats a problem.

00:25:04: many people think that listening inactive But its not true.

00:25:11: Maybe some peoples are simultaneously preparing what they want to say next, and then it doesn't understand anything.

00:25:20: So is this the meaning for you as a professional hostage negotiator?

00:25:26: Is that the meaning of listening in your language?

00:25:30: Yes!

00:25:30: For me personally... The meaning of active-listening is absolutely right.

00:25:33: It's an active skill And I believe communication has its own skills and it's not something that we practice very often or are consciously aware of what is happening, so you can't improve.

00:25:46: We just have the same conversations over-and-over again whereas what Hostage & Crisis Negotiation taught me was to be really present with somebody By default.

00:26:03: we're like, well I'm just waiting for my turn in the conversation.

00:26:06: For me to ask a question or say what i believe is right Or tell you that your wrong and im right Whatever it might be or pretend Im listening And then walk away thinking I can't remember any of those conversations.

00:26:20: So being active Is really working out whats going on.

00:26:24: I often talk about tip of the iceberg conversation, so those safe conversations.

00:26:29: You know when we ask people how they are today and what's happening?

00:26:34: And then very-very safe!

00:26:36: So they create... They start to create their relationship.

00:26:39: but i'm only going to show you What I want you to see especially if don't trust me.

00:26:43: If I trust you Then I might share a little bit more.

00:26:46: But underneath that tip of the iceberg is where everything's going on.

00:26:51: It's where beliefs are, values or experiences and emotions are And if you're a really good listener You can find out what goes under the tip When we find it.

00:27:04: That's when we get to connection.

00:27:05: Connection isn't at the tip of iceberg with hey how do I'm great?

00:27:10: Must catch up for coffee.

00:27:12: They have safe conversations.

00:27:15: Underneath is hey, how are you?

00:27:17: Oh I'm okay.

00:27:18: All that doesn't sound like things are good but You just mentioned the word ok Is everything OK?

00:27:23: Well actually today hasn't been a great day.

00:27:27: Tell me little bit more about your day And then bit by bit it starts to unfold and Then we get some heart of the matter.

00:27:33: Then We Get Connection.

00:27:35: Like my mentor People leave Your conversation.

00:27:38: They go Something different About You.

00:27:41: Help Me To Feel Valued And Validated.

00:27:44: I don't know what you're doing, but your doing it really well.

00:27:47: Okay

00:27:48: and that's why You always need a professional focus in these situations.

00:27:52: But if we Don't be active there is another element of listening That many people find incredibly difficult It's silence.

00:28:02: most of us become uncomfortable after only a few seconds And start filling the space.

00:28:08: so maybe you have an example.

00:28:10: Why is silence such?

00:28:12: also such a powerful tool in negotiation.

00:28:15: Yes, silence is incredibly powerful and I would put it under the active listening.

00:28:21: to be honest because It's one of those things that you're right.

00:28:25: people are so uncomfortable with silence.

00:28:27: We don't like it.

00:28:29: And So if You Are conscious enough In your communication That you deliberately lead The Silence Often what happens Is?

00:28:40: and they will continue to talk about what it is.

00:28:43: that's troubling them.

00:28:45: The other thing it helps with, often in conversations you find people talk over eachother especially when the person has finished or hasn't finished.

00:29:00: so silence is very powerful around as well.

00:29:03: And the worst thing I have found that has happened is, That i'll leave a silence with somebody and if you're going to make it conscious we get people to count ten.

00:29:12: And that feels really uncomfortable.

00:29:14: counting to ten but It makes you hold the silence... ...and be comfortable with it because there's nothing wrong With silence!

00:29:21: So People will either continue or they'll say well are You still There?

00:29:26: Especially If your on The Phone.

00:29:27: Are You Still There?

00:29:29: Yeah..I just wanted To Make Sure Your Finished.

00:29:32: Oh Okay And it's also very good at allowing your emotions to come down, if you can just be silent for a little

00:29:39: while.

00:29:42: Time to breathe!

00:29:44: So as negotiators we learn techniques... We listen strategically and build rapport ...we use certain words deliberately ....and ultimately the other person will make different decisions.

00:30:02: So, Nikki.

00:30:03: Where does influence end and manipulation begin?

00:30:09: It's a question people often ask me so I give it to you!

00:30:13: Okay that is great because what the difference between influence and manipulation is If we look at the dictionary here in England What it says about influence and persuasion are where your influencing for good of other person whereas manipulation is where you're influencing for your own good, for your gain.

00:30:37: Now it's a really fine line because even in the world of saving someone life if I'm talking to somebody who's suicidal and on the edge of building... ...I want them to be safe and take a step back.

00:30:52: that might not what they want.

00:30:55: so i am influencing into what I believe as a goodly the other person.

00:30:59: The other person might feel that I'm manipulating them to do something, but i want them to.

00:31:04: So it's a really fine line.

00:31:06: It is great conversation To have!

00:31:09: In my head this Is My Belief and it Might be different from others But if Im Influencing it I Have A Genuine Benefit Of the Other Person Or For the benefit of the situation Whereas If Im Manipulating Somebody using my power to get them what I want, and it might not be their benefit.

00:31:35: Cool answer!

00:31:36: Let's talk about the illusion of control.

00:31:39: So something else fascinates me about your work.

00:31:42: We often enter negotiations thinking I need to convince this person, but ultimately we cannot control another human being.

00:31:50: so would you agree that one of the biggest lessons of crisis negotiation is accepting that?

00:31:57: You can't control the person on the other end.

00:32:01: and What can you do?

00:32:03: Can we control?

00:32:05: Yeah, that's a great question.

00:32:07: And I'm going to reflect back on the time that went into the FBI training course.

00:32:13: so i had the privilege of going over there and work with the FBI negotiators who are amazing and they were teaching me, I was teaching them.

00:32:23: so it's brilliant.

00:32:24: They would come over to the London Cross if fascinating!

00:32:27: And i met this great negotiator.

00:32:29: he'd negotiated The Boston Bomber out of the boat.

00:32:32: for anybody who has watched the film Captain Phillips He was the earpiece in the Navy Seals Ear when he was negotiating with a Somali pirate that is holding the Captain Philips hostage.

00:32:44: Fascinating man learned from him very grateful to have met him.

00:32:49: your job in life is not to change people because you can't.

00:32:54: The only thing that you have any control over, it's how you choose to respond.

00:32:59: so you're right we...we can't control other people!

00:33:02: We cant' control how they are going react what their gonna say?

00:33:05: What their emotions or beliefs and values are.

00:33:08: And a lot of the time I think we try do that sometimes especially personal relationships maybe at work Definitely in the world of negotiator, we try and change that person's view on life.

00:33:21: And get them to do something completely different.

00:33:24: so The only thing we have any control over is how we choose to react or respond.

00:33:28: now reaction Of course his emotional brain thinking.

00:33:31: We immediately react fight flight-of-freeze.

00:33:34: So they're trying our reactions to become more response like so then more logical Which takes time?

00:33:39: And we've talked about how to buy Time and How To Become More conscious of how you're feeling when your reacting.

00:33:46: And once I realised that, and learnt that lesson then... That's how i managed to stay calm in really tense situations even when im really tired.

00:33:58: When ive been somewhere for a long period of time where maybe I don't agree with the other persons values & beliefs so you can still build a relationship or somebody who dont like You can still treat people with kindness and respect Even if u dont agree And they were huge lessons for me.

00:34:16: Even now, I'm like well what's happening over here?

00:34:21: What that person thinks or feels?

00:34:23: but what i can control is how to treat them and communicate with them... ...and listen to them!

00:34:31: Often in life I have found no matter the circumstances from death to change at work most people just want a feel heard.

00:34:41: And the amount of times I've walked away from a crisis intervention and somebody has just said, thank you for listening to me.

00:34:49: That is the first time anybody has ever listened because it's so powerful in those circumstances.

00:34:58: So i think For Me The Lesson Is You're Absolutely Right.

00:35:01: You Can't Control Other People.

00:35:02: So Control How You Choose To Respond And Treat People With Kindness And Respect Because It Goes A Long Way Even In Most difficult and challenging of circumstances.

00:35:14: And this also, it sounds so easy but its really so difficult!

00:35:21: I remember there are phrases we use all the time... Ah he or she is a difficult person?

00:35:29: What question should we ask ourselves when someone in front us becomes difficult?

00:35:34: Yeah what's the question that you have to ask yourself?

00:35:38: I think for me would be What is it that I am finding difficult about this person?

00:35:45: So we take the ownership of a feeling.

00:35:48: Yes, in many situations It's just difference between our preferences Our beliefs or patterns and what do you say?

00:35:59: And thats why its also like the prisoners dilemma.

00:36:05: In many situation Am i egoistic and then all the time my feelings are important, or am I a cooperative?

00:36:15: And asked okay what's the difference between us.

00:36:18: What means a co-operative situation in

00:36:22: feeling?"?

00:36:23: Yeah yeah certainly you've spoken to Gary Noisner.

00:36:28: he talks about.

00:36:29: so when we talk about the FBI negotiations stairway which he helps to develop, that now at the top of that stairway is collaboration and it never used to be.

00:36:40: It just used to influence persuasion and behaviour change.

00:36:45: And now its collaboration.

00:36:46: and collaboration for me personally is absolutely key.

00:36:49: if you can collaborate with something Of course doesn't work all the time.

00:36:54: we don't live in an ideal world.

00:36:56: We're ideal people.

00:36:58: but If we could work towards collaboration rather than I have to be right here and it's, we're doing It My Way because sometimes when you get that collaboration.

00:37:08: And new ideas and different perspective then your way is like okay yeah I like my way but actually i like a bit of Your Way as well!

00:37:19: Then We Can Move That Together.

00:37:22: what it allows people to do Is Be Part Of That so we can influence and persuade People.

00:37:30: you know, we can do it in a very authoritarian way.

00:37:32: We tell people what they must do and people will do it but they won't do it to their full capacity or their full involvement.

00:37:40: um And you'll get perhaps into business.

00:37:43: You'll probably get a fifty percent effort whereas if you allow People to collaborate and share ideas and opinions?

00:37:50: Then we move forward.

00:37:52: What happens is that they do It's much better ability.

00:37:56: They have much bigger buy-in wherever that might be and thats the same in the world of hostage and crisis negotiation.

00:38:02: If you help people to think its their idea, we talk about control.

00:38:08: We all like being controlled.

00:38:09: it feels uncomfortable when were not so.

00:38:12: if people still feel in control on this journey then your going through with them.

00:38:17: then the end result, that collaboration will be so much greater and you'll get to have such better relationships with people.

00:38:23: Okay thank you!

00:38:24: So Nicky... You've spent a significant part of your life helping other people find way out of moments in which they sometimes could not see ones themselves?

00:38:35: I would like Finish in a with one of my last questions something more personal.

00:38:42: Yeah, what has this work taught you about yourself?

00:38:45: So

00:38:45: the world has taught me to be more appreciative Of The fact that we all have a story so it's tall.

00:38:54: It's taught me too take the blinkers off I think and That we make judgments about people And that's okay because we do that from our primitive brain.

00:39:04: But to remember that will have a storing and wherever I am in my story will depend on how i react or respond to you.

00:39:13: And where ever YOU are in your story, it'll depend upon how you react or responded to

00:39:18: me.".

00:39:20: Yeah...I've learnt that about myself a lot!

00:39:23: It's really helped.

00:39:26: What are you most grateful for?

00:39:28: I'm most grateful that hundreds of people shared their most critical point of life with ME & trusted enough with their story.

00:39:39: Our final three questions if it's okay Niki, very great conversation with you.

00:39:46: what is the biggest mistake we make in difficult conversations?

00:39:51: We already go in with a perspective and we believe we're right on our perspective as soon.

00:40:06: What is the single most important quality of an exceptional negotiator?

00:40:11: Oh, I'm going to say kindness.

00:40:13: Maybe patience and kindness all in one!

00:40:15: Okay... And finally if you could teach every person in the world just one thing about how to communicate with another human being what would it be?

00:40:25: It

00:40:25: will be learning how to listen properly.

00:40:29: Still So, in the World Economic Forum they said resilience and empathy are one of the most important things in a twenty-thirty.

00:40:45: Really less question.

00:40:47: what do you think about the importance?

00:40:53: Because you can learn empathy, about emotions and to see emotions in the face with micro reactions.

00:41:03: The question is a business question because as crisis negotiator You know that this very important.

00:41:11: but why it's always important or not In business negotiations?

00:41:16: Because all of us have crises all of the time.

00:41:20: We're human beings, so we have a variety of emotions and when we feel that somebody gets us... So we like to be heard or seen but also feel valued and validated.

00:41:33: And in world business there's been research around value.

00:41:37: How do people feel valued at work?

00:41:40: One is to feel valued The other one feels valuable.

00:41:47: So they're the two things that help people around value.

00:41:51: And if we can show another person, That we are in touch with what their feeling and what their thinking... ...and were relatable.. ..we listen to them....that helps him feel valued!

00:42:06: In turn If there doing valuable work The productivity and results you will get Will be far higher Just from having empathy.

00:42:16: And also, as a human being it's about connection.

00:42:19: It is about connection at deeper level and that comes from showing the other person.

00:42:25: you can have some understanding of what they are thinking or feeling.

00:42:29: Great words!

00:42:30: Thank You Niki very much for being my guest on NegotiMotion.

00:42:35: It was really a pleasure.

00:42:37: thankyou so much.